Game 31: Separated Scum

Firstly: I hope you feel better soon, Mona. Make sure to get rest. Also, thank you for trying.

Mona L. wrote:
Kodama: Well he started with a readslist, but in that readlist he's already being weird. That isn't really scummy though, as scum doesn't know anything right now either. His reasoning on the lynch is confusing (or maybe I just don't get it) Kodama in general is kind of acting strange, his reasoning seriously needs an explanation, yet I don't think scum would be so careless as to let their explanations be as confusing as Kodama's are. Leaning town

The underlined portion is something I haven’t considered and makes sense. Thank you for bringing it up.

Mona L. wrote:
Mr. Cheeves: I actually think he's town, he seems a bit too defeatist to be scum. I have seen town fight tooth and nail to stay alive and I've seen scum fight tooth and nail to stay alive, but I have yet to see someone who is scum decide to just accept their imminent lynch. Probably town

I think this, on the other hand, could be wifom. I’ve not seen town accept an imminent lynch, but I have in the past seen scum do so (albeit maybe not so openly). The defense Mr. Cheeves does offer is that he doesn’t “approve of” Kodama’s reason for lynching him, which reminds me a lot of things like this:

Zachary O. wrote:No seriously, I've been lynched for the most STUPID reasons. I heard "He was too paranoid" I heard "He was too defensize" I even heard "Zach, get ready to get lynched when day starts. I mean, I'd lynch Victor, but he's my bae now" (Stupidest one imo).

(I don’t refer to Zachary specifically here, but this captures what I’m trying to say well.) If you want to check this for context, it’s Game 17 on this site. Zachary was the lynch that day (D1) and flipped Mafia Goon.

Mona L. wrote:
Mr. Honcho: He's been online and has posted, but it's been very minimal. Leaning scum

I just want to point out in addition to this that I’ve seen Mr. Honcho come on and offline several times since my last post. If you’re there now, please join us.

Mona L. wrote:
Kazalie: I'm not sure what Kazalie is doing, but didn't realize the game had started, then has 4 reads with little explanation, then points something out and leaves everyone to make their own conclusions about it. Leaning scum

I took this (the underlined portion) to be a way of her saying, “This is another scummy thing about Kodama, what do others think of him?” Maybe it’s just me though-how did others interpret this?

Maria S. wrote:
Finally I want to talk about the vig shoot. I definitely think mr cheeves should be lynched today unless he convinces us otherwise but as for the vig shoot, its hard to decide. Although some people are saying Mona is scummy for not scumhunting and just talking about the game mechanics, I think her ideas are good and unique and I want to give her a chance to express her ideas but on scumhunting since thats probably more useful. So i dont think she should be shot. I dont think any of the inactives should be shot except maybe wilkinson because its a bit silly to random lynch after all these posts that actually have lots of content that he could talk about. If I were to shoot someone, I'd currently choose between mr honcho and kodama because of reasons that have already been said.

Regarding the shot, I would agree with a Mr. Honcho shot based on what’s happened so far, but he currently has three posts and I’d like to hear more from him. If we get to the end of the day with nothing from him, he’s a valid option. The same goes for Wilkinson in my opinion, though I’d prefer Mr. Honcho>Wilkinson. As for Kodama, I don’t think he should be shot tonight for the same reasons you don’t believe Mona should be-I’d like to see more of his ideas and Mona’s point about scum being less likely to make posts like his makes me see him in a slightly more townish light.

Regarding the underlined part of the above paragraphs: Wilkinson’s newest posts appeared while I was typing this one. In his first of these two posts, he acknowledges that he hasn’t read the RVS debate (and indicates no intention of doing so? Read the game please), and votes Kodama without giving a reason (there’s suspicion on Kodama, yes, but I’d still like to hear your take on the situation). In his second, he brushes aside my request of “Day One Newspaper Readlists,” to which I say: it doesn’t have to be a newspaper. One or two lines per player would be fine.

Additionally this:

Wilkinson A. wrote:
I also think that Mr. Cheeves is completely incorrect that I should be the vig shoot! How else will I have the chance to prove mine and my paddle's strength in taking games from behind!

makes me think that he’s more concerned with self-preservation and only came online at all because Mr. Cheeves proposed that he be shot.

Based on this, I’m more open to a Wilkinson shot from the Vig. Currently not moreso than Mr. Honcho, but pretty close.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:i'd rather have a vig shoot on mr wilkinson. I dunno, too lazy to read, but I don't like their in and out statement and I do believe they could be traitor os vig. also i admit, i'm probably not as good as contributing to the game so I understand why i would be a decent lynch.

I feel like I'm badgering you and I don't mean to get on your nerves if I am, but is there a reason he may be the Traitor OS Vig specifically (as opposed to Roleblocker or the regular Goon)?

Ed S. wrote:
Also, there are five guests online. I doubt they're all from Game 30. Join us.

This is relevant again-this time with six guests. I don't bite (yet).

I, the great Magnus D., have developed some new reads since my last post!

Ed S. wrote:

Roderick S. wrote:as if they know they're lynching town so trying to justify that they have a reason for it

Other fallacy I'm noticing just now regarding the bolded section: scum at this point has no clue who else is scum and who is town. I've mentioned my personal issue with tone reading but if this what you mean to imply it doesn't make sense.

When I first read his posts, I was leaning town on him based on gut. This realisation makes me lean town a bit more on Roderick, because faulty logic or not, I really doubt that as scum he would have simply forgotten that he is not aware of who his buddies are. More reasoning would still be appreciated though.

Kazalie Z. wrote:As for my reads, I'm going to start with my 2 biggest scum reads for now: Mona and Kodama.

Mona: I simply did not like Mona's first post, it seemed too much like she was just explaining the setup without saying anything important.

Kodama: A read list where almost everyone is town or neutral doesn't help anyone especially when it is your only post.

Discussing the setup is actually important in my opinion given that it's not standardised and (almost) all of us have never played something like this before, so the scumread on Mona is off. As for the scumread on Kodama, I have counted his reads - 3 town, 2 scum, 4 neutral - which in my opinion is a perfectly reasonable list. I have a scumlean on Kazalie because I believe her reasonings for scumreading others are absolutely inappropriate!

Mona's reads post which I won't bother quoting simply seems more town than scum motivated to me, so I'll give her a slight town lean. However I am very disappointed in you for not liking me, the great Magnus D.! Terrible taste in people, that is, and ashamed you should be!

Wilkinson's comeback..... seems townie to me, but I can't really put a finger on why!

Edd S. wrote:Firstly: I hope you feel better soon, Mona. Make sure to get rest. Also, thank you for trying.

Mona L. wrote:
Kodama: Well he started with a readslist, but in that readlist he's already being weird. That isn't really scummy though, as scum doesn't know anything right now either. His reasoning on the lynch is confusing (or maybe I just don't get it) Kodama in general is kind of acting strange, his reasoning seriously needs an explanation, yet I don't think scum would be so careless as to let their explanations be as confusing as Kodama's are. Leaning town

The underlined portion is something I haven’t considered and makes sense. Thank you for bringing it up.

I, Magnus D., believe that scum could very well make confusing explanations in hopes that town wouldn't bother to enquire about it, and I would have to disagree with this reasoning!

Eddy S. wrote:

Mona L. wrote:
Mr. Cheeves: I actually think he's town, he seems a bit too defeatist to be scum. I have seen town fight tooth and nail to stay alive and I've seen scum fight tooth and nail to stay alive, but I have yet to see someone who is scum decide to just accept their imminent lynch. Probably town

I think this, on the other hand, could be wifom. I’ve not seen town accept an imminent lynch, but I have in the past seen scum do so (albeit maybe not so openly). The defense Mr. Cheeves does offer is that he doesn’t “approve of” Kodama’s reason for lynching him, which reminds me a lot of things like this:

Zachary O. wrote:No seriously, I've been lynched for the most STUPID reasons. I heard "He was too paranoid" I heard "He was too defensize" I even heard "Zach, get ready to get lynched when day starts. I mean, I'd lynch Victor, but he's my bae now" (Stupidest one imo).

(I don’t refer to Zachary specifically here, but this captures what I’m trying to say well.) If you want to check this for context, it’s Game 17 on this site. Zachary was the lynch that day (D1) and flipped Mafia Goon.

Having seen both town and scum in this situation, I firmly believe that defeatism is not alignment indicative - what I do believe is alignment indicative is whether they have properly rebutted all arguments before becoming defeatist, and this is why I'm keeping my vote on Mr. Cheeves.

Not Ed Sheeran wrote:

Mona L. wrote:
Kazalie: I'm not sure what Kazalie is doing, but didn't realize the game had started, then has 4 reads with little explanation, then points something out and leaves everyone to make their own conclusions about it. Leaning scum

I took this (the underlined portion) to be a way of her saying, “This is another scummy thing about Kodama, what do others think of him?” Maybe it’s just me though-how did others interpret this?

This is quite clearly our daily display of scummy scum being scummy scum, as proven by the usage of the new meta involving stating your scumreads and then not lynching them!

In the event that I do not manage to elaborate on anything else that happens before our lynch occurs, I believe for reasons I have stated that this would be the best vigging order:
Kazalie > Kazalie > Kazalie
I certainly hope this town believes my vigging order to be reasonable, and I guarantee that I am not tunnelling at all - not in the slightest!

MagnituD. wrote:

Obvious Ed Sheeran wrote:

Mona L. wrote:
Kazalie: I'm not sure what Kazalie is doing, but didn't realize the game had started, then has 4 reads with little explanation, then points something out and leaves everyone to make their own conclusions about it. Leaning scum

I took this (the underlined portion) to be a way of her saying, “This is another scummy thing about Kodama, what do others think of him?” Maybe it’s just me though-how did others interpret this?

This is quite clearly our daily display of scummy scum being scummy scum, as proven by the usage of the new meta involving stating your scumreads and then not lynching them!

In the event that I do not manage to elaborate on anything else that happens before our lynch occurs, I believe for reasons I have stated that this would be the best vigging order:
Kazalie > Kazalie > Kazalie
I certainly hope this town believes my vigging order to be reasonable, and I guarantee that I am not tunnelling at all - not in the slightest!

But really, this "new meta" came from someone whose entire playstyle was based on wifoming their interactions. Anita ended up discussing her "scumread" on her partner and then lynching someone else, while a scum!Kazalie doesn't know their partners at this point and didn't lynch anyone at all. Basically, I don't see a motivation for a scum!Kazalie to do this unless she thinks she's caught on to some kind of soft from Kodama or Mona. I don't see a motivation for it from town!Kazalie either, so I'm considering it NAI. (I currently don't support a Kazalie shot over Wilkinson/Mr. Honcho.)

Twenty-four hours to deadline by the way. Thank you topeople who have been able to provide reads so far. Where the heck is Rhonda?

I accidentally only posted the last part of my post. Here's the rest of my response.

Magnus D. the Pretty Good wrote:

Kazalie Z. wrote:As for my reads, I'm going to start with my 2 biggest scum reads for now: Mona and Kodama.

Mona: I simply did not like Mona's first post, it seemed too much like she was just explaining the setup without saying anything important.

Kodama: A read list where almost everyone is town or neutral doesn't help anyone especially when it is your only post.

Discussing the setup is actually important in my opinion given that it's not standardised and (almost) all of us have never played something like this before, so the scumread on Mona is off. As for the scumread on Kodama, I have counted his reads - 3 town, 2 scum, 4 neutral - which in my opinion is a perfectly reasonable list. I have a scumlean on Kazalie because I believe her reasonings for scumreading others are absolutely inappropriate!

I think the problem Kazalie had with Mona at the time was similar to the one I had with Mona, which was that Mona had only commentary on the setup and no opinions regarding reads on other players. When you mentioned Kodama's readlist containing two scumreads I raised an eyebrow-and then went back to check and realized I'd been wrong in saying that his reads were all neutral/town. Thank you for bringing this up, because I probably wouldn't have gone back otherwise. It does bring up two new issues regarding Kodama though:

1. His scumreads in his first post are Wilkinson and Rhonda. I can understand a scum lean on Wilkinson, but Kodama's making the error most of us have intentionally avoided,which is scumreading Rhonda just because she's not posted despite coming on.

2. He goes on to vote for neither of these people and instead amends his reads for a vote on Mr. Cheeves. This shifts plurality off of Rhonda, who he was scumreading, and onto Mr. Cheeves (formerly a neutral read). In other words he shifts plurality off of his scumread.

MMMagnus D. wrote:I

Edd S. wrote:Firstly: I hope you feel better soon, Mona. Make sure to get rest. Also, thank you for trying.

Mona Lisa wrote:
Kodama: Well he started with a readslist, but in that readlist he's already being weird. That isn't really scummy though, as scum doesn't know anything right now either. His reasoning on the lynch is confusing (or maybe I just don't get it) Kodama in general is kind of acting strange, his reasoning seriously needs an explanation, yet I don't think scum would be so careless as to let their explanations be as confusing as Kodama's are. Leaning town

The underlined portion is something I haven’t considered and makes sense. Thank you for bringing it up.

I, Magnus D., believe that scum could very well make confusing explanations in hopes that town wouldn't bother to enquire about it, and I would have to disagree with this reasoning!

It's more confusing in a "what's going on in your head" way as opposed to a "it looks like you're trying to mislead town" way.

Registered Users: Ed S., Rhonda R.
Hype

Kodama N.
Latest post : Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:05 pm
Last visit : Yesterday at 11:37 pm

Roderick S.
Latest post : Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:00 pm
Last visit : Yesterday at 2:08 pm

Wilkinson A.
Latest post : Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:59 pm
Last visit : Today at 2:45 am

Mr. Honcho
Latest post : Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:37 am
Last visit : Today at 3:06 am

Not so Hype

I have no excuse for not posting until a day before DL.

The way Mr. Cheeves just sort of gave up and became "too lazy" to read rubs me the wrong way.  I can understand not agreeing with someone else's logic in lynching you, but acting like a child who doesn't get his way just compounds the problem.

I don't know whether Magnus is hyping himself up in all his posts in an attempt to be funny or just to liven up the game, but to me it just seems obnoxious.  However, he made a lot of great points in his last post that more than make up for that, which I will discuss more later.  He also mentioned that he thought Roderick was more townie because he forgot that scum were separated and didn't know each other (could have been someone else but still applies).  Forgetting info like that is just as easy for scum to pretend to do as it is for town to actually do, so just keep that in mind.

Kazalie's three posts include very little info, and the info that is there just seems invalid.  A lot of this is just either restating or elaborating on what Magnus has said, so just be warned.  Her scumread on Mona based on her first post regarding the theme/rolelist doesn't make much sense to me as that early discussion was beneficial to town and not really scummy at all.  She also called out Kodama for having too many town/neutral reads, despite it still being day 1 without much info to go off of on most players.  I can understand reading into such a thing a bit more if it were day 3 or 4, but this early it's not a huge issue.  Her next post points out that Kodama lynched one of her neutral reads, which is also not a ridiculous thing to do on day 1 when people are mostly unsure of their reads.

Wilkinson is just yelling about how he doesn't care about any of the discussion going on, but would rather just simply announce his lynches with no reasoning.  I honestly have no clue what to think about that other than it doesn't seem to help town in any way, nor does it allow us to read into his lynches and thoughts on anything that is going on in the game.

Maria made a good point that Kodama wanting to give me a chance to defend myself doesn't really make any sense considering that the lynches on me were meant to pressure me to talk, not to get me killed.  While the way she stated her reasoning seems odd, I think that since she doesn't expect to be able to post again before deadline, she would rather lynch someone who has made posts that seem scummy to her as opposed to someone that she hasn't seen any content from yet, good or bad.  I agree with how Maria herself put it: "I am not saying the lynch against cheeves is wrong, I am just saying the way you went about it seems off"  The excessive discussion about the merit of RVS is/was a waste of time, as RVS is generally used for about the first half of day 1 to help promote discussion based on reactions to those lynches, and not a be all end all decider for the day 1 lynch target.

Ed's discussion about Cheeves seems very interesting to me.  He says that the defeatist attitude shown by cheeves is indeed scummy, contrary to what Mona thought in her read.  I think that anybody who tried to contribute to town early in the game and immediately got multiple lynches on him/her would tend to be frustrated, regardless of his/her role.  However, the issue I have with Cheeves is that he seems to have given up on defending himself and is sort of throwing the game by not cooperating with the rest of the game anymore.  He may very well be town, but if he is he still isn't helping town out through the manner in which he has decided to play.

Hopefully this post was worth waiting pretty much all day for.  I'll do my best to remain active from now on.

I'm excited that everyone's made posts in the game now. Welcome, Rhonda.

A lot of what Rhonda mentions has been said before (albeit it's not necessarily wrong), so there's little I want to respond to.

Rhonda R. wrote:
Maria made a good point that Kodama wanting to give me a chance to defend myself doesn't really make any sense considering that the lynches on me were meant to pressure me to talk, not to get me killed.  While the way she stated her reasoning seems odd, I think that since she doesn't expect to be able to post again before deadline, she would rather lynch someone who has made posts that seem scummy to her as opposed to someone that she hasn't seen any content from yet, good or bad.  I agree with how Maria herself put it: "I am not saying the lynch against cheeves is wrong, I am just saying the way you went about it seems off"  The excessive discussion about the merit of RVS is/was a waste of time, as RVS is generally used for about the first half of day 1 to help promote discussion based on reactions to those lynches, and not a be all end all decider for the day 1 lynch target..

I was confused reading this at first due to thinking that the "she" referred to Maria and not Kodama. I need to check Bulbapedia, but I think Kodama's male. Yeah, Ed's a nerd. What do you think of Kodama being neutral on Mr. Cheeves but quickly switching to a scumread to lynch?

Rhonda R. wrote:
Ed's discussion about Cheeves seems very interesting to me.  He says that the defeatist attitude shown by cheeves is indeed scummy, contrary to what Mona thought in her read.  I think that anybody who tried to contribute to town early in the game and immediately got multiple lynches on him/her would tend to be frustrated, regardless of his/her role.  However, the issue I have with Cheeves is that he seems to have given up on defending himself and is sort of throwing the game by not cooperating with the rest of the game anymore.  He may very well be town, but if he is he still isn't helping town out through the manner in which he has decided to play.

Even if a town member is frustrated, I don't think they would shut down and ignore people's comments the way Mr. Cheeves is right now. He's being selective with which questions he chooses to answer, and I think his suggestion of a Vig shot on Wilkinson (while I appreciate the reaction it brought from Wilkinson himself) may be a way of trying to deflect suspicion.

NOTE: I don't think I'm entering a tunnel right now, but it does feel like I'm being unusually harsh on Mr. Cheeves. An outside perspective would be appreciated.

Alright, it seems some people, mainly Magnus, think that my posts were inaccurate.

However, I stand by what I said about both Kodama and Mona. Kodama picked 2 people as 'leaning scum' and then proceeded to lynch one of his neutral reads who happens to have the highest lynch count. I find that scummy.

And Mona's posts, I don't know how to explain it, they just have that scummy vibe of 'I'm typing a lot but all the stuff I'm saying is either common knowledge or either reiterating what someone else has already said'

Ed seems to be leading town for now. Now I tend not to trust town leaders but I don't see anything overly scummy from him right now, he pretty much seems to be town, but I will reserve judgment until later. We don't want to lose him early.

Magnus is very.. agitated. He thinks I'm scum and should be shot. I don't. (10/10 defense) What I do think is that he is town, and I hope he isn't the vig. (Side note to vig: No matter your own opinions , I urge you to listen to the majority on who should be shot. Mafia don't know each other, so there is no risk of them ganging up and misleading town, no matter how much you feel like your opinion or hunch is correct, shoot whoever town wants you to shoot)

Mr.Cheeves: I really don't see anything he's done to be scummy, but I don't see him as town either. I don't support lynching him but it might be too late to change that.

Maria: is probably town. I don't agree with your opinions, but you post in a very towny way, so i'm not suspecting you for now.

Mr.Honcho: troll? Either way seems like a townie that will not be contributing much to the game. Would not oppose a shot on him.

The rest I haven't really formed an opinion on, I disapprove of roderick's lynch though, Wilkinson is weird, but not scummy, and Rhonda just made a post that agrees with everyone else so that counts as scummy as well.

So as of now I will Lynch Mona and I would like the vig to kill either Mona or Kodama.

Mona L. wrote:

Kazalie: I'm not sure what Kazalie is doing, but didn't realize the game had started, then has 4 reads with little explanation, then points something out and leaves everyone to make their own conclusions about it. Leaning scum

To clarify, my intent wasn't to 'leave everyone to make their own conclusions', I was saying that what he did was scummy, I don't know why you didn't pick up on that.

Also, KAZAZOOOOO

I, the tired Magnus D., shall reply to what has been said since my last post later, hopefully before deadline, and request that our great host grants us a vote count.

I’m gonna make a reiterated reads list since I’ve read over everything, since I actually have time now to craft my post and read over everything. Totally read everything, before I made my first reads list..

Ed S. - I agree with Kazalie as to not fully trust town leaders, although he has made many contributive topics to our discussions (mainly the reason for the neutral read and not town), some of those topics were unnecessary imo and sorta mislead us (another example, is him associating players in this game with another past player). He is also unusually sympathetic in some parts of his posts (e.g. “Thank you topeople who have been able to provide reads so far.”, “I appreciate that, Kazalie” and “Firstly: I hope you feel better soon, Mona. Make sure to get rest. Also, thank you for trying”) which I think he might be trying to befriend town as this “kind and nice guy”. 3/22 of his posts (I excluded pre-game posts), are just telling if guests are from our game, then post something, or just pointing out people not posting anything. I’m not sure if this is just trying to encourage people to post, or just trying to make his post count higher and to get town credit for wanting people to discuss about things. Also, "NOTE: I don't think I'm entering a tunnel right now, but it does feel like I'm being unusually harsh on Mr. Cheeves. An outside perspective would be appreciated.” what I interpret this as is, “NOTE: Could you guys please tell whether I’m being scummy or not.”  Neutral.

Magnus D. - I don’t really have much to say about Magnus, Except him being egotistical is now obnoxious he was overly defensive on Maria saying one of his posts were lazy. His posts still contain quite an amount of filler and he only made reads on a select amount of people and didn’t really elaborate on his point about wanting Kazalie to be vigged. Neutral.

Maria S. - Her contributions to Ed’s post about the theme, and having Vig reveal were really helpful and towny like. She is very observent, and asks/pushes people for scummy things she notices. I can tell she is observant since she knew I didn’t read every wall post. She pressures ‘the right people’, both well and efficiently. Overall, very towny presence and we should definitely keep her around. Town.

Wilkinson A. - As I said before, he RVS’d (or I assume so, since the reasoning was “I don’t like your swaggin’ style.”) Magnus pretty late in the day. He clearly stated he doesn’t care at all about the “shit-tear RVS debates” and he “only cares about his paddle”, he goes on to have a poor defense on why he shouldn’t be shot by the vig, and then goes on to lynch me without explaining why and then he shows he’s too effortless to make a reads list (or he’s trying to say, “you made a newspaper readslist, you go to hell!”). Overall, most, if not all of his posts are filler/unneeded and I think he is scum at this point. Scum.

Rodrick S. - As I said before, he wanted to bring up “Ed’s scummy opening” even though that was pre-game and anything happens pre-game is pre-game. He pointed out Maria S.’s pre-game comments as well. He also says Maria’s first post about Ed’s theme post was scummy, even though it is a necessary topic to talk about. He practically also said, “Why has no one pushed Rhonda for her inactivity yet? Inactivity = Scum!”. He also goes on saying Magnus is the towniest player at that point, and he hasn’t been on ever since to explain why he thought this. Leaning scum. since he has been on since he last posted which means he can explain his posts.

Mr Cheeves. - As I said before, “I agree with his post on RVS, but his reasoning for "Magnus and Ed should keep the whole situation to them self" was that it didn't really mean anything and was kinda a joke. If it was a joke that didn't mean anything, then why put it in your post? Some of his posts (or parts of his posts) are not needed in that post, (e.g. "Hope for the best."). Trying to make your posts seem longer?” I still think this, but in his post in saying he would like a Vig shot on Wilkinson, as backup of his reasoning, it was, “I dunno, too lazy to read.” and doesn’t elaborate much else, and doesn’t explain how he thinks Wilkinson could be the OS Vig, and continues his defeatism. Idk if he’s trying to wifom, by pointing out specifically my reason for lynching him, but he looks pretty bad to me rn. Scum.

Mr Honcho. - The only thing he ever brought up was having the vig hardclaim, and get roleblocked. He only specifically replied to one person’s opinion on the topic he brought up. “As for RVS, I don't think that using it for reaction testing in a forum game is productive. That being said, I don't think that people trying to use it is scummy, since I know this opinion isn't universally shared.”, idk why no one has brought this up yet, but from what I see he’s trying to say “I think RVS is inefficient in forum games, but since I know not everyone will agree with me, I don’t believe this.” Scum.

Mona L. - Her reads post while she was sick showed she is dedicated to posting something in here, and her reads on everyone look okay to me and she did do what I asked of her in my first reads list. Her comment on Ed’s post on the setup was very helpful in discussion about the setup and clearly showed effort. She considers a lot of things that could happen/should happen in the future, and does this by bringing these subjects up for discussion. Overall, towny appearance. Town.

Kazalie Z. - Her reads on Mona and I did not have much reasoning that was worth accusing us for imo. She didn’t say why she found Ed and Maria towny and why “especially Maria”. until later The “Kazazooo” thing is confusing and idk what to say about it. (also I thought editing was allowed if you stated what you were editing, etc, I would like to hear from AJ about this) I like how she responded relatively quickly about all the accusations against her, she said “especially Maria”, to then later say she doesn’t agree with her opinions, but does think “she posts in a towny way.”. She also said that she thought Ed was very towny, and then goes on to say “I tend to not trust town leaders.”. imo, she then said “the rest I haven’t really formed an opinion on.” From my perspective, I think it means “basically, they haven’t posted much and they are irrelevant to the game, so I will not take the effort to make a read on them.”Otherwise from that, her reasoning for her reads seem okay to me. Leaning Scum.

Rhonda R. - Her only post (which was 1 day before the deadline), repeated a lot of things said already. For me it was sorta like a ‘just to let you guys know I’m here, and am reading what people are saying’ post. I would like to see more quality of posts from her. Neutral.

If you’re gonna pressure me for having 5 scum/leaning scums on my list of reads, I assure you it’s probably a play style thing, where I like to have/keep lookout on some players that could still be/not be scum. Also, I would like to invite anyone to comment on my reads on them/other people.

Edit: For "(mainly the reason for the neutral read and not town)", I meant neutral read and not scum/leaning scum.

I think the point about Kodama changing his read from neutral to scummy just to lynch mr cheeves backs up my point about him getting an easy way out by joining the lynch train and masking it with the readlist.

Ed I think your point about cheeves's vig suggestion is an attempt to deflect suspicion is excessive. We criticised him when he asked for vig suggestions and didnt give his own, so when he does give his vig suggestions you say he's trying to "deflect suspicion"? Its clear that hes accepting the lynch on him so he knows full well that his vig suggestion isnt going to influence the lynch. I also feel that there really isnt any point anymore in digging up anything else against mr cheeves since he's practically refusing to defend himself and respond to the original points and any other points we throw at him.

Rhonda, i agree that RVS is generally used for about the first half of day 1 to help promote discussion based on reactions to those lynches, which is why this whole thing sparked up because RVS was redundant by the fact there was already a reaction post in the form of magnus D. Which is why cheeves was lynched at the very start of day 1, because he tried to initiate RVS when the game could have easily progressed without it. RVS should only happen if theres literally no other possible way to gather reactions and apply pressure to it. I think the merit part was simply ed wondering if i thought RVS didnt gather truthful reactions, in which i didnt think it did.

Kazalie on what opinions do you not agree with me on? From ur readlist i think i gathered you think mr cheeves shouldnt be lynched and you also think mona should be. What precisely do you not agree with me on and why do you not support a lynch on mr cheeves?

Also to add on to kazalie's point against mona, kazalie simply asked for other people's thoughts, similar to what ed does a lot of the time. So why does that make kazalie leaning scum? However i do agree that saying "read into it what you will" doesnt make it clear especially since it was made in a separate post.

Anyway to make it easier for us to decide on a majority vig kill, here are all the suggestions made so far...
Me: Mr honcho and kodama
Ed: mr honcho and wilkinson (honcho > wilkinson)
Magnus: kazalie
Kazalie: mona and kodama
Cheeves: wilkinson

Hopefully i didnt miss any

Errr i wrote this post before kodama posted his mega readlist, so i might need to revise my point about basic readlist after i read his post

@Kodama Why am I still leaning scum to you if you think my reasoning seems ok? (Note to mod: please clarify about editing posts) (Self note: KAZAZOO)
@Maria I don't agree with the 'mr. Cheeves is scummy' argument, but I don't find you scummy for it either.
I want everyone who posts form now on to just say 1 name in their post that should be shot. No maybes or choices. 1 person so the vig will have a clear person to shoot.
Name: Mona

@Kazalie I realised I didn't clarify well on weights of the reasonings I listed of scumminess/not scumminess. All the other reasons/evidence I had against you weighs more than the okay reasoning of some of your reads.

I have a clear person I think Vig should shoot, and I say it's Wilkinson. (reasons listed above)

About editing posts- it's okay if it's like 1 minute after you post and you notice a mistake, since the "Edited" thing won't show up, so nobody knows. But you can't do it long enough after that the message shows up.

Votecount 1.4
******************************
Mr. Cheeves(3)- Ed S., Magnus D., Kodama N.
Rhonda R.(2)- Mr. Cheeves, Maria S.
Maria S.(1)- Roderick S.
Kodama N.(1)- Wilkinson A.
Mona L.(1)- Kazalie Z.
Magnus D.(0)-
Ed S.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Mr. Honcho(0)-
Kazalie Z.(0)-
Not Voting(3)- Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Rhonda R.
******************************
There are 11 alive so it takes 6 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Wednesday the 28th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Mr. Cheeves would be lynched.

Kazalie: We're getting late into D1, but I'm still at this point going to encourage my "everyone take a leader role" stance. Saying things like "we don't want to lose this person early" basically tells the Traitor OS Vig, "Hey, if you want to hurt town shoot this person!" Which could be a soft. Your comment on Magnus ("I think he's town but I hope he isn't the Vig") comes across to me as a possible as well,as you don't actually mention a reason that you shouldn't be the shot.

I don't really see how you came to the conclusion that Mr.Honcho was a troll, as he hasn't really done anything specifically intended to annoy people (with the possible exception of flickering on and offline).

This comment also sets off a warning bell in my head: "@Maria I don't agree with the 'mr. Cheeves is scummy' argument, but I don't find you scummy for it either. I know you have a mention of "I disagree with Maria but think she's town, but the bolded section is is coming across as just trying to stay on Maria's good side.

Kodama: Firstly, see my first comment to Kazalie regarding town leaders. There are portions of your read on me that I don't understand.What is misleading about referring to past players? I would agree with you wholeheartedly on the comments you believe give off a "kind and nice guy" sentiment, but they don't refer to any actual content of the game and as a result I fail to see how they may affect someone else's read on me (if they were separate filler posts or being nice to those who viewed me favorably I would understand).

The main point I do understand is your concern that I'm seeking towncred for asking people for activity. There will definitely be a reduction in this now that everyone has posted, but it frustrates me when people come online, have questions directly asked to them, and don't answer. I usually intend it as a way of saying to those people, "Hey, I know you're there so please stop lurking and answer me." The most recent case where I did this (see the four "Latest Post/Last Visit"s on Wilkinson, you, Mr. Honcho, and Roderick) is a better example.

I also see your concerns with my comment on tunneling Mr. Cheeves. It's frankly not helpful to anyone if I am tunneling, and it's not very likely that if I am in fact tunneling I am going to notice it myself, hence asking.

Magnus explains his reasons for wanting Kazalie vigged a couple of times (Her reasons for scumreading others and use of the "new meta"). This is included in his wallpost, which I encourage you to read (in addition to other wallposts).

What do you mean by "the right people" in your read on Maria?

I think Kazalie's "Kazazoo" thing is just a flavor she's using for the fun of it (see: "-Ramone", "Lolicon/Shoutacon"). As far as her read on Maria goes, you don't have to agree with someone's points to have a townread on them.

Lastly: At the end of your readlist, you say, "If you’re gonna pressure me for having 5 scum/leaning scums on my list of reads, I assure you it’s probably a play style thing." This implies that your playstyle has done a complete 180 from when it motivated you to have primarily town/neutral reads because "nobody had done anything scummy yet." I find this fact scummy because it feels like you're amending this solely to appease people's comments on your having a lot of townreads.

Maria: What frustrates me mostly with Mr. Cheeves is that, in addition to not defending himself, he's not giving insight on most of the game and has only mentioned the shot on Wilkinson because he didn't like Wilkinson's "pop in and out"-implying that he finds Wilkinson to be the scummiest player in the gave for this reason. In the event Mr. Cheeves is reading this: I remain open to unlynching you, but it isn't going to happen without reasoning/effort on your part. Just...Ed used Frustration!

I'm currently updating my readlist, as everyone has not been online and posted at least once and some of my opinions have shifted. When I've finished writing out my thoughts, I should have a clear idea on one person the Vig should shoot.

Ed S. wrote:What do you think of Kodama being neutral on Mr. Cheeves but quickly switching to a scumread to lynch?

Covered this in my earlier post. I think the fact that it's early in day 1, reads may change drastically because of the lack of info on everybody at this point, so it's not an insane assumption that Kodama saw Cheeves sort of give in to the lynches on him and decided to lynch him (note: sorry for calling Kodama she- these names confuse me sometimes)

Maria made an interesting point that he may have used his readlist as a way to mask that he was jumping onto the bw on Cheeves by simply including him as neutral before shifting him to scummy, which I can say I have seen before in these anon games. I'd like to see what other people think about that possibility.

Welp ed saved me the effort of writing a large-ish post replying to kodama since he said a lot of my thoughts about it, but here's some things I want to add. About magnus making reads on selective people, I dont see how thats a bad thing. You dont have to make reads on every single person if you dont have anything useful to say or if you're just gonna repeat others. A partial readlist is much better than a forced full readlist. Also i dont think you correctly implied what Mr Honcho meant. He just meant that people who use RVS arent scummy despite him believing that RVS isnt that great in forum games. In that post I got the impression that mr honcho thought i lynched mr cheeves because everyone who starts RVS is scum. Due to his inactiveness its unclear whether he still thinks that and just his stance on anything because he's literally done nothing so far.

Kazalie you answered the question of "what do you not agree with me on", but you have yet to answer the question on "why do you not think cheeves is scummy?". You said that you dont think he's town either, if you dont agree with my reasoning (which also takes into account reasons addressed by other people), what makes you think he isnt town?

Vig kill vote: Mr Honcho

Just deleted this by accident

Following up on my last post, I will note that Kodama has made a more detailed readlist now, with observations that seem logical and make sense based on what I have read.

Kazalie said that she still suspects Mona since she sees her as making large posts that simply restate info with little of her own input. I think this may have a lot to do with the fact that she is apparently sick, or it's a case of Mona reading through what people have said and including her own opinion where she sees fit. She also posted her own readlist a while ago, and while it was fairly basic, there hadn't been much content yet, especially from a certain few people, myself included. I'd be curious to see what an updated readlist from her would look like now.

Kodama N. wrote:"NOTE: I don't think I'm entering a tunnel right now, but it does feel like I'm being unusually harsh on Mr. Cheeves. An outside perspective would be appreciated.” what I interpret this as is, “NOTE: Could you guys please tell whether I’m being scummy or not.”

While I understand that the way Ed says this seems like he's simply asking for his opinions to be validated, I think this is just an instance where he worded what he was trying to say poorly. The way it reads, it could easily be interpreted as "Guys do I look scummy for tunneling on Cheeves", but I think he was trying to ask if it made sense to tunnel Cheeves this hard based on how he has been asking.