Game 31: Separated Scum

It isn't throwing, I don't think I have much to defend myself with~

I actually started working on this readlist last night, but was unable to finish it before fatigue took over If a name isn’t mentioned here, it means that my read on them hasn’t changed. (I’m pretty sure that’s only Maria and Mr. Cheeves.) The names here are in approximate order of town—>scum. I’m starting to get a slight headache from staring at the screen for so long, so this may be my last post for Day 1. I’ll do what I can to come on before deadline, as I want to write and post the Magnus ISO I mention below before then, and I’m still hoping for visits from Mr. Cheeves, Mr. Honcho, Wilkinson, and Roderick.

Magnus D.-I actually want to dedicate a separate post to a Magnus ISO regarding my read on him, because I scumread him at first then leaned town based on his reaction test, and I think writing out all of my thoughts will help me to do this. I will post the full thing when it’s complete. When it comes to who should be shot tonight, however, he’s nowhere near a candidate for me.

Mona L.-Her willingness to help by making a readlist is causing me to lean town. I’d love to see more from her when she’s no longer sick, but there’s nothing in her readlist that jumps out as scummy. Some of her points are superficial, but I don’t see how Kazalie gets an overall “this stuff’s been said already” feeling.

Rhonda R.-That she’s appearing so late into the day means there’s only so much she can say that others aren’t discussing already. I’m currently still neutral on Rhonda, but I have noticed that she so far hasn’t expressed a read, town or scum, on anyone. I think the closest to a read I see when looking at her posts is her comments on Kazalie in her first one on this page.

Roderick S.-For all I know he wasn’t able to stay online for long and plans on answering later today. As I mention for Kodama below, I think he’s at least read the game-which makes his “Why has no one pushed Rhonda” if you thought should she should have been pushed. Roderick explaining his posts when he is able will be helpful, particularly his vote on Maria as the reasoning seems rather weak (Maria is opposed to RVS, Maria’s tone when voting for Mr. Cheeves).

Kodama N.-Another person I’ve been flip-flopping on, but unlike Magnus he has fewer posts to go over. Taking a better look at his first readlist, it seems to come from the perspective of someone who has at the very least read the game (albeit not wallposts apparently), which makes other peoples’ comments about his “I don’t want Rhonda to die” comment stand out more. I’ve expressed my concerns about his newest post and can’t get over the “playstyle shift” that’s happened in a matter of days.

Kazalie Z.-Kazalie has moved down a couple of spots for the reasons I mentioned. I see content in her newer posts that looks a lot like scum trying to soft or trying to get on the good side of players widely considered to be town.

Mr. Honcho-It briefly occurred to me that he looks like a very easy mis-shot if he’s not scum. However, reading for this would be based on the whole “X is pushing him because they know he’s town” thing, which can’t be the case. The only reason I’ve shifted to wanting a Wilkinson shot over a Mr. Honcho shot is that my main problem with Mr. Honcho is his lack of acknowledging much of the game. I have this same problem with Wilkinson, but it is in addition to other issues.

Wilkinson A.-I find him scummier than I did in my earlier readilst for the reasons I mentioned regarding his new posts. That he’s logged in and presumably seen my comment (his list need not be a “newspaper”) and then left is frankly unhelpful regardless of alignment. Like I said regarding Roderick, he may be planning to do this later today. Currently, Wilkinson is my vote for who the Vigilante should shoot.

First of all, while my headache is (mostly) gone, I am still very tired so I won't be saying a lot (I probably forgot like 70% of what I read) I will however talk about my ideas for a vig kill and some things that actually relate to me. (I might've missed something, in which case please remind me)

Kazalie Z. wrote:

(...)

And Mona's posts, I don't know how to explain it, they just have that scummy vibe of 'I'm typing a lot but all the stuff I'm saying is either common knowledge or either reiterating what someone else has already said'

(...)

Honestly I am aware of my "I am typing a lot" way of playing, it's because I have a lot of thoughts that don't always correctly translate into words, so I just say a lot and hope that my message gets across. I've also had a lot of misunderstandings on what I meant to say in the past, and if I say a lot I just hope that people with either get it correctly or not get it at all and ask for clarification. As far as reiterating what people have said goes, I honestly forget most of what people say anyways so I'm not sure how I'd go about that. I also never like assuming what is common knowledge and what isn't, so if what I'm saying is common knowledge, I probably didn't realize that.

Rhonda R. wrote:Just deleted this by accident

Following up on my last post, I will note that Kodama has made a more detailed readlist now, with observations that seem logical and make sense based on what I have read.

Kazalie said that she still suspects Mona since she sees her as making large posts that simply restate info with little of her own input.  I think this may have a lot to do with the fact that she is apparently sick, or it's a case of Mona reading through what people have said and including her own opinion where she sees fit.  She also posted her own readlist a while ago, and while it was fairly basic, there hadn't been much content yet, especially from a certain few people, myself included.  I'd be curious to see what an updated readlist from her would look like now.

I won't make a full on updated readslist, but I will say something about a few of the people that hadn't posted before. It won't be great because I am too tired to read everything closely, but I'll try not to fuck up any facts.

Rhonda: Rhonda came late but immediately started making actual posts, I can't say whether she's repeating common things or not as I am not sure what common things are right now, but I do realize that it's really easy to forget about the game for the first few days, so I think that she just had a late start. But she's actually trying now, which is more than can be said about some people. Leaning town

Wilkinson: Talking about people who aren't trying, there's Wilkinson. I'm not sure why he's doing this, he could be a towny throwing or he could be scum hoping that people would find his behaviour completely ridiculous. For now I'd say scum would make more sense, it's like he's trying to fly under the radar. Leaning scum

Kazalie: Kazalie was also less active, and has become more active when pressured. Hasn't changed their views though, even though part of the heat on them has been about those same views. Still it's not really a good thing if someone only becomes more active and starts actually explaining themselves once there's actual pressure on them. Slightly less scummy than before in my opinion, still scummy. Still leaning scum

Then about the vig kill.

I believe that Wilkinson would be the best option, he is acting scummy and is honestly putting in 0 effort.
If not Wilkinson, then Kazalie is still acting really scummy, though at least Kazalie is trying, while Wilkinson is simply not.

Since its almost the end of day 1, I might as well say something that i"ve been keeping to myself for a while since its purely my gut and also coz wilkinson is majority vote for vig kill. From wilkinson's play i honestly cant see him being scum at all. Like theres wifom, then theres wilkinson's ridiculous play in which psychologically would only make some kind of sense if he was a vanilla townie. However i understand that this could encourage wilkinson to keep going his way so i kept it to myself until the end. I also understand that it doesnt look like wilkinson is gonna stop playing like that, so the vig kill still makes sense regardless of his role. I just dont know if I value a townie (in my eyes) thats a liability being dead or alive. Which is why i am gonna keep my vote on mr honcho since i think theres a higher chance for honcho to be scum.

The power of modern medicine is actually phenomenal. I’m back, and I have plenty of time to do what I want to.

Mona:

Mona L. wrote:Wilkinson: Talking about people who aren't trying, there's Wilkinson. I'm not sure why he's doing this, he could be a towny throwing or he could be scum hoping that people would find his behaviour completely ridiculous. For now I'd say scum would make more sense, it's like he's trying to fly under the radar. Leaning scum

I’m about to bring this up in my Magnus ISO, but one of the first things I did when I saw the theme was read the Mafiascum page on the Traitor role to see what kind of tactics a Traitor might use. The very first section under the “Play Advice” heading was this:

Mafiascum wrote:
"If the scum know that there is a Traitor in the game, it should not be difficult for the Traitor to distinguish themselves to the scum. Just do something outrageously scummy or eye-catching for them.”

(By the way, the “outrageously scummy” thing I’m about to bring up regarding Magnus is the omgus towards my first post, as at time I wasn’t sure what to make of his “I’m great and thus can do this” remark-it seemed like he was possibly fulfilling an overwhelming need to justify it.)

The other “strategy” mentioned on mafiascum is the “bad Townie” strategy, which I can see a scum!Mr. Cheeves or scum!Mr. Honcho attempting.

Mr. Cheeves: Zzz…defend with what you have? Also, your randlynch on Rhonda is still there. Now that she’s posted, what do you think of her?

Magnus: Hey, remember the “new meta”? Remember how I said something along the lines of “Kazalie didn’t lynch anyone at all as opposed to Anita lynching a non-scumread”? Mona just went into some more detail with her reads on Wilkinson and Kazalie and while she suggested a Vig shot on Wilkinson there’s currently no vote from her. What do you think of this?

Same question to Maria as to Mr. Cheeves actually-your pressure vote on Rhonda is still there. What are your thoughts now that she's posted?

Also, I think I understand your thoughts on Wilkinson, but what psychology would motivate this from a Vanilla Townie? And what do you think of the "play outrageously scummy" strategy I mentioned above?

Ed S. wrote:Same question to Maria as to Mr. Cheeves actually-your pressure vote on Rhonda is still there. What are your thoughts now that she's posted?

Also, I think I understand your thoughts on Wilkinson, but what psychology would motivate this from a Vanilla Townie? And what do you think of the "play outrageously scummy" strategy I mentioned above?

Rip i forgot to unlynch her lol, I just like how she's really made the effort to contribute despite joining late into the game.

I mean idk why we should talk about the psychology thing coz its a very unstable topic that should be taken with many grains of salt, but basically any sort of power role psychologically induces a feeling of responsibility for the player. Vanilla townie is the only non-power role here. About that traitor tactic, that would imply the player is actually taking the game seriously. In wilkinson's case, i couldnt imagine a player taking the game seriously would gamble with such high odds stacked against him. So his play just says to me that he wants to troll and nothing more.
unvote rhonda, vote mr cheeves

So, here’s the Magnus ISO. It's not as long as I thought it would be. I’m referring to each post with a number-his confirmation post would be #1, and his most recent post at the time I’m starting this is #10. If I have no comments on a post, I’ve omitted it.

#3: I mentioned my initial thoughts on this above. The reason I didn’t pursue it at the time is that it’s frankly an infinitesimal and shaky point, especially now that I know Magnus is continuing this “Magnus D. the Great” thing throughout the game.

#4: I appreciate his taking a closer look a my post and giving more insight. That he continues to show the insight he’s giving to the game as opposed to glossing over everything is a strong reason I have him as a townread. He’s also the one to suggest that we give the Vig a pool of 2-3 targets to pick from, which I like-if we nominate the Vig and nobody else as the Vig target, well…

#5: The instant vote on Mr. Cheeves also caught me off guard, but I think it’s a matter of timing. Magnus admitting that his reaction didn’t work in the way he intended is townish-I’d expect a scum!Magnus to say, “Look at what Mr. Cheeves did here! This is exactly what was intended!”

#9: I agree with (forgetting who said it but I think it was Mona) that scum can fake a comment like Roderick’s, firstly. What I wanted to point out here was his Vigging order of Kazalie>Kazalie>Kazalie. Magnus was the one who initially suggested that we give the Vigilante 2-3 targets, but at the moment he’s only expressed a desire for Kazalie to be shot.

And then I realized that Magnus only had 10 posts. Maria has 14 so “only” might not be the right word and I may be overdoing things (this is my 30th post and Day 1 hasn’t ended). Basically, I’m currently leaning town on Magnus, and in the overall order I still have him between Maria and Mona. But there are occasional concerns that I don’t understand and I thus plan to keep an eye on him for a bit. His opinions on some of the other players people have suggested as Vigging targets would be helpful, for example.

Ed S. wrote:#9: I agree with (forgetting who said it but I think it was Mona) that scum can fake a comment like Roderick’s, firstly. What I wanted to point out here was his Vigging order of Kazalie>Kazalie>Kazalie. Magnus was the one who initially suggested that we give the Vigilante 2-3 targets, but at the moment he’s only expressed a desire for Kazalie to be shot.

I, the great Magnus D., posted earlier regarding hopefully coming back before deadline precisely for this - to get a better list of preferred Vig targets than only Kazalie. I'm sure it is also saddening for everyone else, but on top of that I also do not have the time to go into great detail about the reasoning behind each of my picks at the moment or to read each post - I have only skimmed most of them so far.

Ed: Regarding my new meta scum read on Kazalie, I suppose that there is the chance that I am mistaken, but I believe this setup doesn't discourage not lynching your "scumreads" as scum, as you want to keep scum alive as scum. I hope it makes sense while not dangerously treading into wifom territory, as - despite wine being a fine and tasty choice for an alcoholic beverage - it is, as others have correctly stated, best avoided completely especially given the nature of this setup.
I am also of the firm belief that it's far less scummy of Mona to not lynch Wilkinson if he's her top scumread atm, since a single vote won't nearly be enough to get him lynched before deadline, and it's much closer to it right now as well. Obviously, the Vig can eliminate him on top of that anyway, so I believe her decision is still appropriate.

I don't think I can provide 4 solid scumreads at the moment (including the current lynchee as one), so my final list of preferred Vig targets at the moment is:
Kazalie > Mr. Honcho > Others (no particular preferences outside of please not shooting my current townreads though I don't think that will happen)
I feel Honcho has been scummier than Wilkinson in both their limited amounts of posts, but I'm not really sure how to argue in favor of sparing Wilkinson given that my townread on him is based on my great gut.
I think I saw someone post a preferred target list - the Vig should look at that and update according to this and other peoples' updates. Or if someone could compile it that would truly be great, I need to leave again very soon.

Votecount 1.5
******************************
Mr. Cheeves(4)- Ed S., Magnus D., Kodama N., Maria S.
Rhonda R.(1)- Mr. Cheeves
Maria S.(1)- Roderick S.
Kodama N.(1)- Wilkinson A.
Mona L.(1)- Kazalie Z.
Magnus D.(0)-
Ed S.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Mr. Honcho(0)-
Kazalie Z.(0)-
Not Voting(3)- Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Rhonda R.
******************************
There are 11 alive so it takes 6 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Wednesday the 28th at 9pm EST.

Mr. Cheeves was lynched.

he was the...:

Night 1 Commence! Deadline is the 30th at 9pm EST.

the death last night was of...:

Day 2 Commence!

Votecount 2.0
******************************
Rhonda R.(0)-
Maria S.(0)-
Kodama N.(0)-
Mona L.(0)-
Magnus D.(0)-
Ed S.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Mr. Honcho(0)-
Not Voting(9)- Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Rhonda R., Ed S., Magnus D., Kodama N., Maria S., Roderick S., Wilkinson A.
******************************
There are 9 alive so it takes 5 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Tuesday the 4th at 9pm EST.

I'm kind of surprised at the Kazalie flip. I was about to bring up a point I'd noticed about her ignoring Kodama's shift in reads aside from a single sentence about her.

Titus (see the other game) has brought up a similar point to Magnus’s about scum not wanting to lynch scummy people. Magnus’s explaining why it applies to this setup specifically (keeping potential partners alive) is helpful in my seeing why this is scummy. I also understand Magnus’s thought that Mona may have felt that a Wilkinson lynch would gain no traction, albeit Wilkinson is still alive today. Mona,what are your thoughts on this?

Titus also mentions that scum might lynch someone who doesn’t have plurality. At the end of day 1, this applied to Roderick, Wilkinson, and Kazalie. Unsurprisingly, Roderick and Wilkinson are two people I’d love to hear from, particularly regarding the reasons for their day 1 votes.

I’d strongly appreciate readlists from the following people: Mr. Honcho, Wilkinson, and Roderick. In particular, I’m going to pressure:

Vote Wilkinson A.

You said you had a problem with making readlists Day One. It’s Day Two now, so please join us.

Kodama: As I said yesterday, I have a problem with the fact that you attribute your shift in reads to a “playstyle difference” when the difference between the readlists are so significant. Yes, I’m aware that your second realist is based on your thoughts when you were able to “read over everything,” but you go from “it’s too early to say this person is scum” to “I like to keep a lookout on players that could still be scum” with no progression in the span of 12 hours. (By the way, with that logic you should be “keeping a lookout” on every other player in the game-nobody’s confirmed to be town.) Could you go into more detail with this?

KAZAZOOOOO

I am in desperate need of someone to discuss with. Or at least something to do. I am on the cusp of doing full ISOs of everyone for this purpose, but I don’t think this would actually accomplish much.

My main reason for this post is that at this point Mr. Honcho is my current nomination for who the Vigilante should shoot. I believe there to be at least one and likely two scum within Wilkinson/Mr. Honcho. Mr. Honcho’s “Vig should hardclaim” idea is not only unfair to the Vig but hurtful to the town, as it does nothing to hinder the Mafia (which can then Cop without fear of their target dying). He’s additionally come online on a plethora of occasions,to the point where it’s extremely unlikely he’s been unable to respond. He has also been on and seen my request of a readlist from him and at this point I can only assume he is intentionally ignoring the thread in hopes of flying under the radar-there is literally no way for him to have missed this request as it is one of two posts of Day Two, the other being Kazalie’s bah post.

After Mr. Honcho, Kodama is my second nomination for the Vigilante shot. The only reason I don't include Wilkinson is because my lynch is currently on him.

@Ed S. - Firstly, when I said “it’s too early to say this person is scum”, it was around the middle of d1, and when I said “I like to keep a lookout on players that could still be scum” there were a bunch more posts that helped me make my reads, and also I had more time to go over every post with more detail, and trying to notice every thing. I’d also like to ask, what did you mean by, “with no progression in the span of 12 hours.” There were clearly more posts between my first and second readlists. Are you saying that those posts were not important? Secondly, what I meant by “keeping a lookout on players that could be scum”, I meant pressure them specifically, ask them more questions than other people, etc. (Also, since you want something to do, could you please explain why your second nomination for Vig shot is me?)

Thirdly, I would like to lynch Mr. Honcho since he has not contributed other than trying to get the CV to practically suicide. The most scummy thing about him that stands out to me the most is that he said “As for RVS, I don't think that using it for reaction testing in a forum game is productive. That being said, I don't think that people trying to use it is scummy, since I know this opinion isn't universally shared.” This shows that he doesn’t want to be seen as scummy, and wants to avoid being scummy by not doing what he thinks is right. What I interpret of it: “I think using RVS for reaction testing in a forum game isn’t productive, but since I know this opinion isn’t universally shared, I think that people trying to use RVS aren’t scummy.”

Fourthly, the Vig shot.
My reads right now are (from town -> scum): Maria -> Mona -> Ed -> Magnus -> Rhonda -> Rodrick -> Wilkinson -> Mr. Honcho.

My nomination for the Vig shot is Wilkinson since pretty much, all of his posts are filler or just lynches without any good reasoning. He also clearly states that he wasn’t even going to bother to contribute on day 1. This nomination may change if Wilkinson actually comes on to post something useful.
(I would like to also note that ^ also applies for Rodrick and Wilkinson((my other 2 scum reads.))

I decided I wanted to make a point/post about Rodrick.

He practically just came on, made a RVS vote on Wilkinson (I assume, since it was in his confirming post) quite late into the game and then unlynched 8 minutes later, without explaining why he lynched Wilkinson to begin with. He went on to make some opinions on people (note: without any reasoning), leave and then just never post again. He brings up Ed's and Maria's "openings" which he believes to be "scummy". He clearly didn't realise those were pre-game and pre-game doesn't actually affect anything ingame. I would really appreciate a post from Rodrick explaining his reads on the people he posted on (Magnus, Ed, Maria) or sub him out if he needs one. (I don't know how to check when someone has last came online and if someone could tell me how, I'd highly appreciate it).

You're probably wondering why I wanted to make this post. Rodrick is my second nomination for Vig shot. (reasons listed above). If you're also wondering why Rodrick is where he is on my Town -> Scum thing, it's because Rhonda had actually put reasoning into her post and made good points, while Rodrick just didn't put any reasoning at all, but Rodrick still stands at a better position (on my reads list) than Wilkinson, since Wilkinson hasn't actually dedicated any effort at all.

KodamaWhen I say "with no progression in the span of twelve hours," I mean that there are no posts from you within that time indicating a shift in thought process. As I said above I am aware that your second readlist came after being able to read over everything, but it was still "around the middle of day one" when you posted your second readlist. What happened to it still being too early?

The primary reason for you being my second nomination for the Vig shot was the shift I mentioned-it seemed very abrupt for you to go from having two scumreads to two townreads in a rather short period of time, even with a reread of the game.

Regarding your read on Mr. Honcho, I agree that he is scummy but not for the reason you mention. You mention that he doesn't want to be seen as scummy-does this not apply to both town and scum? To rephrase my readon Mr. Honcho, there is virtually no way that someone as town comes online as many times as I've seen him do so and still have a valid reason to not post every time, especially when they come online at a time when the only game-related post of the day is directly asking them for something.

To check when someone last came online, you can go to their profile and click "Statistics", or fine their name in the list of members. The first option has the benefit of also showing when a person made their last post.

I'm pressured for time at the moment,but in about 10-15 minutes I should be able to continue.

Continuing the above.

You mention that "keeping a lookout on other players" referred to pressuring/asking certain people more questions. At the moment, you have yet to question any of your scumreads save Mr. Cheeves ("Trying to make your posts seem longer?") and during day one there was no pressure from you on anyone you were scumreading save the fact that you were scumreading them.

This has turned out to be the only other thing I want to add currently. Roderick is the closest thing I have to a neutral read because I cannot discern any kind of town or scum motivation for him to lynch Maria. His reasoning is weak but scum would (A) probably pick an easier target and (B) make more of an effort to push their lynch. Two counterpoints to this are (A) Roderick was trying to discredit Maria, who is widely townread or (B) Roderick was reluctant to lynch but aware he'd garner suspicion if he didn't, thus picking someone unlikely to gain support as opposed to potentially being perceived as bandwagoning on a more popular lynch.

Votecount 2.1
******************************
Wilkinson A.(1)- Ed S.
Mr. Honcho(1)- Kodama N.
Rhonda R.(0)-
Maria S.(0)-
Kodama N.(0)-
Mona L.(0)-
Magnus D.(0)-
Ed S.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Not Voting(7)- Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Rhonda R., Magnus D., Maria S., Roderick S., Wilkinson A.
******************************
There are 9 alive so it takes 5 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Tuesday the 4th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Wilkinson A. would be lynched.

Kodama N. wrote:My nomination for the Vig shot is Wilkinson since pretty much, all of his posts are filler or just lynches without any good reasoning. He also clearly states that he wasn’t even going to bother to contribute on day 1. This nomination may change if Wilkinson actually comes on to post something useful.
(I would like to also note that ^ also applies for Rodrick and Wilkinson((my other 2 scum reads.))

^ That is basically me asking them to post, but yea I meant Rodrick and Mr. Honcho, but regarding the "no pressure on anyone on D1", on my two readlists I did tell Mona and Rhonda (I think it was them) to post what I asked. On my second read list, I said "Also, I would like to invite anyone to comment on my reads on them/other people.". I thought that the people who were put as scum/neutrals would mostly want to post their comments on their/other's reads anyways, so I didn't want to ask them specifically.

I, the great Magnus D., am very disappointed that neither Kazalie nor Mr. Cheeves flipped scum, and will need to reprimand myself and seriously re-evaluate some of my reads if I keep hitting town after town!

I believe that Mr. Honcho has yet to redeem himself of his bad Day 1, and unless he does so, I am lynching Mr. Honcho.

My current town to scum list is as follows:

Magnus D. The Great (obvious town)
Ed S.
Maria S.
Rhonda R.
Roderick S.
Mona L.
Wilkinson A.
Kodama N.
Mr. Honcho (hopefully scum)

I realise some of my townreads rank a little low, and that would be due to the fact that upon closer inspection of the game, I just townread others more. The shift that Ed mentioned regarding Kodama is a primary reason for him being so low on the list, and regarding Wilkinson, his low effort isn't enough to rank him higher than I put him regardless of how I town read his tone before.

I don't think I missed any questions directed at me, but if I did, or even if I didn't, you can ask me anything!

The shift.

Firstly, my playstyle didn't really "change" imo (or that's what I say, since I know my own playstyle.), what I was doing, was "looking out" on the neutrals as well. It's what I do when I don't have enough SRs. Secondly, the day before I posted my 2nd read list, I had no time to really post so I decided to just read over everything with great detail. On the evening I posted the 2nd read list, I was working on other posts about my thoughts on the first post of Ed, my thoughts on the vig hardclaim idea, etc. But I decided it was too late to post it (since I had to go straight away, after finishing this, then I would have to sleep and wake up to see the deadline had already passed.) and since I had limited time, I just decided to post a reiterated reads list since that's the only other thing on my mind, besides posting thoughts about the vig hardclaim and the theme post.

Kodama N. wrote:Thirdly, I would like to lynch Mr. Honcho since he has not contributed other than trying to get the CV to practically suicide. The most scummy thing about him that stands out to me the most is that he said “As for RVS, I don't think that using it for reaction testing in a forum game is productive. That being said, I don't think that people trying to use it is scummy, since I know this opinion isn't universally shared.” This shows that he doesn’t want to be seen as scummy, and wants to avoid being scummy by not doing what he thinks is right. What I interpret of it: “I think using RVS for reaction testing in a forum game isn’t productive, but since I know this opinion isn’t universally shared, I think that people trying to use RVS aren’t scummy.”

Like I said before I am fairly certain you misinterpreted what Mr Honcho meant. I made a post replying to you which had the explanation of what he probably meant in addition to other points. Seeing as though you missed it, it says to me that you only bother to read the thread thoroughly when pressured to do so and not from your own accord. However it might be that you just decided to ignore it, if thats the case, why did you decide to not acknowledge it since it directly opposes your opinion? If you think your opinion is correct, surely you have the means of convincing me?

Ed S. wrote:
This has turned out to be the only other thing I want to add currently. Roderick is the closest thing I have to a neutral read because I cannot discern any kind of town or scum motivation for him to lynch Maria. His reasoning is weak but scum would (A) probably pick an easier target and (B) make more of an effort to push their lynch. Two counterpoints to this are (A) Roderick was trying to discredit Maria, who is widely townread or (B) Roderick was reluctant to lynch but aware he'd garner suspicion if he didn't, thus picking someone unlikely to gain support as opposed to potentially being perceived as bandwagoning on a more popular lynch.

It's fairly clear that Roderick wasnt "reluctant to lynch" since the moment he came in, he RLd wilkinson which is clear that he decided to lynch before even thinking about reading anything. Then when he did he was dead convinced from how he assertively phrased his opinion that I was scum and proceeded to straight away lynch me. I also dont see how not lynching anyone would garner suspicion, and if he was so concerned about not being suspicious, why disappear off the face of the earth after making such outrageous claims without anything decent to back it up? Flawed reasoning isn't something we're used to seeing from Ed and the fact this happened at the start of day 2 could imply that ed inspected Roderick however it's too early to make that sort of conclusion and Ed's insight on this is very important before any sort of conclusion. Also if you say that scum would make more of an effort to push their lynch, surely you could argue that wilkinson's lack of effort to push on his kodama lynch could justify him not being scum? Although i did say that i didnt think wilkinson is mafia, you can see how ridiculous it looks when you start applying that reason. Which is why I don't think scum necessarily have to make more of an effort to push their lynch if they are deciding to fly under the radar.

Kodama N. wrote:

Kodama N. wrote:My nomination for the Vig shot is Wilkinson since pretty much, all of his posts are filler or just lynches without any good reasoning. He also clearly states that he wasn’t even going to bother to contribute on day 1. This nomination may change if Wilkinson actually comes on to post something useful.
(I would like to also note that ^ also applies for Rodrick and Wilkinson((my other 2 scum reads.))

^ That is basically me asking them to post, but yea I meant Rodrick and Mr. Honcho, but regarding the "no pressure on anyone on D1", on my two readlists I did tell Mona and Rhonda (I think it was them) to post what I asked. On my second read list, I said "Also, I would like to invite anyone to comment on my reads on them/other people.". I thought that the people who were put as scum/neutrals would mostly want to post their comments on their/other's reads anyways, so I didn't want to ask them specifically.

Try reading your requests for others to talk and pretend you're the one who is being asked to do so. Do you really feel pressured when someone says "I would like to invite anyone to comment on my reads" even if you were scumread by him/her? There is a difference between asking and pressuring, and pressuring is used against your scumreads most of the time. So why not make the effort of doing so rather than letting them decide whether they want to reply to you? Urgency for answers is townie behaviour and thats definitely not something I am seeing from you.


Magnus why do you think Mona is scummier than Roderick btw? From what i gathered you only townread roderick due to your gut and there hasnt been any reasons as to anything scummy that you have thought mona has done (unless i've missed anything).

Maria S. wrote:

Ed S. wrote:
This has turned out to be the only other thing I want to add currently. Roderick is the closest thing I have to a neutral read because I cannot discern any kind of town or scum motivation for him to lynch Maria. His reasoning is weak but scum would (A) probably pick an easier target and (B) make more of an effort to push their lynch. Two counterpoints to this are (A) Roderick was trying to discredit Maria, who is widely townread or (B) Roderick was reluctant to lynch but aware he'd garner suspicion if he didn't, thus picking someone unlikely to gain support as opposed to potentially being perceived as bandwagoning on a more popular lynch.

It's fairly clear that Roderick wasnt "reluctant to lynch" since the moment he came in, he RLd wilkinson which is clear that he decided to lynch before even thinking about reading anything. Then when he did he was dead convinced from how he assertively phrased his opinion that I was scum and proceeded to straight away lynch me. I also dont see how not lynching anyone would garner suspicion, and if he was so concerned about not being suspicious, why disappear off the face of the earth after making such outrageous claims without anything decent to back it up? Flawed reasoning isn't something we're used to seeing from Ed and the fact this happened at the start of day 2 could imply that ed inspected Roderick however it's too early to make that sort of conclusion and Ed's insight on this is very important before any sort of conclusion. Also if you say that scum would make more of an effort to push their lynch, surely you could argue that wilkinson's lack of effort to push on his kodama lynch could justify him not being scum? Although i did say that i didnt think wilkinson is mafia, you can see how ridiculous it looks when you start applying that reason. Which is why I don't think scum necessarily have to make more of an effort to push their lynch if they are deciding to fly under the radar.

[/quote]

My paragraph about Roderick was hypothetical. It's possible that he entered this game unwilling to lynch, but decided upon seeing the setup that it would be a better idea for him to do so and thus made sure to at least get a randlynch in. Not lynching anyone would cause suspicion because, as has been mentioned, scum is more likely to avoid lynching because of the risk of lynching an ally. Because this is a hypothetical, I don't think it justifies Roderick not being scum, similar to how Day One I mentioned multiple reasons that Rhonda may not have come online while remaining neutral on her.

In contrast to Roderick, Wilkinson has yet to indicate that he's even read part of the game. Roderick's vote has a push, but it's a weak one and I'd expect scum to push harder if they were going to push at all (I'd also expect them to not make a vote that would draw so much attention). I don't think Roderick is attempting to fly under the radar because someone trying to do so would likely sheep the general consensus as far as reads go. However, Wilkinson has no reasoning for his vote on Kodama and seems to be taking advantage of the fact that Kodama is coming under scrutiny-at that point a push was less likely to be necessary (others were effectively doing so already) and people were less likely to question a lynch on Kodama than one on you. Wilkinson also explicitly refused the request of making a readlist (again with no actual reason given for doing so).

You seem to be coming to the conclusion that I am scumreading Roderick based on his lack of content. Because so much of this is based on a hypothetical, I am still neutral on Roderick (as I said in the paragraph you quoted). I've been waiting for more content from him or a sub since his first set of posts Day One.

Ed S. wrote:

My paragraph about Roderick was hypothetical. It's possible that he entered this game unwilling to lynch, but decided upon seeing the setup that it would be a better idea for him to do so and thus made sure to at least get a randlynch in. Not lynching anyone would cause suspicion because, as has been mentioned, scum is more likely to avoid lynching because of the risk of lynching an ally. Because this is a hypothetical, I don't think it justifies Roderick not being scum, similar to how Day One I mentioned multiple reasons that Rhonda may not have come online while remaining neutral on her.

In contrast to Roderick, Wilkinson has yet to indicate that he's even read part of the game. Roderick's vote has a push, but it's a weak one and I'd expect scum to push harder if they were going to push at all (I'd also expect them to not make a vote that would draw so much attention). I don't think Roderick is attempting to fly under the radar because someone trying to do so would likely sheep the general consensus as far as reads go. However, Wilkinson has no reasoning for his vote on Kodama and seems to be taking advantage of the fact that Kodama is coming under scrutiny-at that point a push was less likely to be necessary (others were effectively doing so already) and people were less likely to question a lynch on Kodama than one on you. Wilkinson also explicitly refused the request of making a readlist (again with no actual reason given for doing so).

You seem to be coming to the conclusion that I am scumreading Roderick based on his lack of content. Because so much of this is based on a hypothetical, I am still neutral on Roderick (as I said in the paragraph you quoted). I've been waiting for more content from him or a sub since his first set of posts Day One.

I understand that its possible, but there must have been something that you saw that made you think of this possibility in the first place. From what I see there is minimal reasoning to support this reason from the way he posted. So what did you see in his posts that led you to that possibility? I find it to be silly that scum would not lynch because he's too afraid to lynch a partner when in reality one lynch from one person probably wont stop the rest of town from lynching what they think to be the most likely person to be scum, especially when it was sometime in the middle(?) of day 1. In fact using that logic you can argue that a lynch on me from a scum!Roderick is because he believes I am less likely to be scum than other people and so he doesn't have to worry about his lynch causing the death of a scum.

However your point would then contradict your other point that scum fly under the radar by just sheeping the general consensus since it risks lynching an ally. Also you say that you expect scum to push harder, but doesnt that contradict your point that scum want to avoid being the cause of a fellow scum being lynched? So which point in these contradictions is most likely to be the correct point since obviously they cant all be correct. I dont agree that sheeping doesnt gather suspicion since people are aware that bandwagoning is a scummy trait and from how this game started, Roderick must have realised that the players here are fairly observant. I also dont see why scum should push hard if they are pushing if it means risking an ally getting lynched. Now i know i said that I think its silly to suggest that scum wont lynch to avoid risking an ally dying but it makes sense that a scum wont push so that others dont get swayed and lynch a potential scum.

In fact if we take a look at a pushing situation from 2 ends it shows that its never beneficial for mafia. If they push against a player that is widely scum/neutral read then they are risking an ally dying, but if they push a player that is widely town read then chances are that he garners suspicion on himself which obviously he wouldnt want to risk. Therefore I don't think your reasons as to what a scum should do and what Roderick is doing thats different is completely sound.