Game 31: Separated Scum

Alright, it's early in the game so I don't really have some clear reads so far, but I do have something to say about the idea of vig picking their own reads to kill.

If we're going for a normal situation where there's not a lot of scum compared to the ammount of town, and they don't really know who the others are either, there's honestly not going to be too much trouble with scum influencing town's decisions, I agree that there is a point past which the vig should start deciding for themselves, but before that point, there are some things we need to consider.

Two in fact, the first being that we don't know who the vig is, so how do we know we can trust their reads? The vig isn't any more likely to be right about their reads than any other random person in the game.

Another thing we need to consider, is that if the vig just kills their own reads, it'll make them really easy to find for the traitors. Let's say only one person in the game has a scumread on someone, and that person dies, while the town decided on a different kill, well, who oh who could be the vig? So at that point the vig would have to hide their reads, to not be revealed as vig. It would cause more problems than just the "can we trust their reads?" question.

Basically, I believe that until the point where it becomes dangerous to simply listen to some votes, it's best if the vig doesn't just decide for themselves who they want to kill. Of course, we can't exactly control the vig. So if they believe something else, they'll do something else either way.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that someone said scum has no reason to be town leaders, except the problem is that they do. They have every reason to. They're all cops, they can find the other scum, so they're not likely to be in any danger of eachother. They don't have anything to lose by being town leaders, so they might as well be as towny as they can be, to make sure they don't get killed.

First off, I'd like to say that since it's day 1, and no night actions have been used yet, it means that most of these reads are by heart and not by softing inspections and such. So d1 can contrast with many other days to the traitors especially if they get a mafia. If someone flips traitor, using the interactions between d1 and other days, especially if someone gets town read or scum read without a legitimately good reason could be a sign of inspect or buddying. That being said now they'll probably play around what I just said and there was no point in even saying this.

Maria S. wrote:Ed, its true that i dont think RVS can garner truthful reactions. In server mafia, its much more impulsive and fast-paced and so out of the blue lynches can indeed cause scum to slip.

Also, I feel like applying more pressure to people can really cause them to react differently and hopefully slip.

Mr. Cheeves, there are currently two votes on you: one from myself and one from Magnus. Do you have any comment on these votes or the reasoning behind them?

Also, if you're aware of the wifom surrounding your first paragraph, why go into so much detail with it?

Mona L. wrote:Another thing I wanted to point out is that someone said scum has no reason to be town leaders, except the problem is that they do. They have every reason to. They're all cops, they can find the other scum, so they're not likely to be in any danger of eachother. They don't have anything to lose by being town leaders, so they might as well be as towny as they can be, to make sure they don't get killed.

I, the great Magnus D., am probably the one you are referring to, and I have already addressed that I didn't at all mean to imply that scum has no reason to be a town leader, but merely less reasons than in Star-Crossed!

Votecount 1.2
******************************
Rhonda R.(2)- Mr. Cheeves, Maria S.
Mr. Cheeves(2)- Ed S., Magnus D.
Magnus D.(1)- Wilkinson A.
Maria S.(1)- Roderick S.
Ed S.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Kodama N.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Mr. Honcho(0)-
Mona L.(0)-
Kazalie Z.(0)-
Not Voting(5)- Kodama N., Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Kazalie Z., Rhonda R.
******************************
There are 11 alive so it takes 6 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Wednesday the 28th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Rhonda R. would be lynched.

Ed S. wrote:Mr. Cheeves, there are currently two votes on you: one from myself and one from Magnus. Do you have any comment on these votes or the reasoning behind them?

Also, if you're aware of the wifom surrounding your first paragraph, why go into so much detail with it?

So iirc, Ed S. you lynched me due to the lack of reaction and not commenting on your first post? I'm still unsure why about this one.

And Magnus D. I think that you're lynching me because of the way I handled the first two posts, by subjecting to rvs as a method instead of something else, when I could have easily just lynched you instead. Why I have done these things, I do not know. But I am choosing to abandon the past in hopes of a bright future!

Also I just wanted to explain situations more in depth in case someone didn't have a similar thought process.

This is the reason for my vote on you currently.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:So I do think that Magnus and Ed should keep the whole situation to them self. Meanwhile, let's get started on this beautiful thing called Random Voting Stage. It's a foolproof plan that shall hopefully end up with the result of a power role mafia being lynched.
Vote Rhonda R.

You imply here that "the whole situation" refers to the (nonexistent) discussion about my first post. You go on to enter RVS, which is intended to elicit reactions, but you have no comment on Magnus saying little else than "I agree" with no elaboration.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:
1) Ed S. There was nothing really I had meant to imply that, just as a joke for lynching each other for no apparent reason.

2) Random Voting Stage? Why would I suggest the idea? Well at that point in time not everyone had talked, and there was no solid evidence to lynch someone. What kind of route would you suggest, Maria? Talking about our roles and what they do would solve nothing except give more strategies on what to do, not who to lynch. And I wholeheartedly support the idea of the vig NOT to claim, as I have explained above. I'd like to hear more on the reasoning to oppose RVS. And for the most part I agree with what you said on your posts, Ed S. but I'd rather leave more freedom to the vigilante to decide who they want to kill. If scum is able to manipulate the vigilante and convince other town members into killing the wrong target, it pretty much guarantees scum the win. So I'm sticking with the thought that if the compulsive vigilante has a strong gutread for whatever reason they should shoot them, instead of an iffy town/scum suggestion.

Here you seem to backtrack and claim that you were joking about Magnus's omgus. I say "seem to backtrack" because if this was in fact the case at the time, there was no reason you couldn't have given your own thoughts on my post if you didn't think it should just be left to the two of us. You do it in this post, but by this point the fact that you haven't given your thoughts has become a big deal and I think you'd feel obliged to regardless of alignment. TL;DR the reason you give in this post doesn't line up with your behavior in your first post.

Invalidating a solid scumhunting strategy through wifom is another problem I have with you now. I'm not satisfied with your response of "in case someone didn't have a similar thought process" because:

(A) You say yourself that "there was no point in even saying this" because of the wifom, meaning you were aware of the capability this had to hurt the town,and
(B) This is a fairly unanimous thought process I'm sure we all had in mind. Even if it wasn't, you could have waited until a later day when you actually noticed a case of it.

Hi, sorry didn't realize this started. Am here now, will check what happened a bit later. KAZAZOOOOO

I appreciate that, Kazalie.

Since the deadline is in <48 hours (not that much under 48 but still) and Mr. Cheeves has potentially invalidated our ability to read for softs at the moment, I'd like to give my current reads. These are based on my doing ISOs of each player as well as a full reread of the game so far.

People I am currently townreading:

Maria S.-Taking her opinion on RVS to be NAI, her opinions on things like the mass soft and when the CV should claim are very clearly coming from a pro-town mindset (ex. wanting the unkillable clear that comes with the CV claiming post OS Vig shot, her discouraging of too much wifom discussion so we can still scumhunt softs). She’s also been actively engaging in scumhunting as opposed to keeping herself limited to the setup speculation (which has merit but shouldn’t take up all of our time). My strongest townread at the moment,

Magnus D.-The major point affecting my read on Magnus is his “reaction test.” My instinct is to not believe it, but I see no incentive for a scum Magnus to claim that it was a reaction test and then admit to it failing. Leaning town.

People I am neutral on because I’m waiting for content:

Roderick S.-I’d like to see his answers to the questions I asked him.
Rhonda R.-Hasn’t posted anything despite coming online.
Kazalie Z.-Promised their thoughts on what’s happened so far.
Kodama N.-Confirm, fam.

People I’d like to see more from but could be scum based on what they’ve posted so far:

Mona L.-Has actually been fairly under the radar so far, with only two posts about the setup. This isn’t a bad thing in itself, but what are your thoughts on some of the players so far (ex. myself, Maria, Magnus, and Mr. Cheeves)? Neutral, very weak scum lean

Wilkinson A.-In the same boat as Rhonda in that he showed up online and didn’t comment on anything going on, but he did a randlynch on Magnus due to not liking the latter’s…style? I can’t tell if this is serious. And if it’s a randvote, I wonder if he’s read the RVS debate between myself and Maria or anything in the threaw that he could have used to make a read. Neutral, weak scum lean

People I am currently scumreading:

Mr. Honcho-Only has two post-start posts currently, both pertaining to his “sacrifice the Vig” strategy. I still disagree with it, but don’t find it scummy. That his only other comment is on RVS strikes me as notable (again a matter of “is that all you can say”), as he seems to have picked the least controversial topic to comment on. He also completely ignores Maria’s and my responses to his initial suggestion. Leaning scum.[i]

Mr. Cheeves-I’ve explained my read on him above.[i]My strongest scumread at the moment.

People who are me:

Ed S.-See the heading.

I think Rhonda and Kodama would have received activity prods by now considering that the deadline is tomorrow. If they haven’t, I’d like to request this from AJ.

If possible, I’’d like to see readlists in some form from everyone prior to deadline. I'm giving what I believe to be ample time with this request, so please no, "It was on such short notice!"

Redact my comment on Kodama needing a prod, he's online at this moment. Hey there!

Confirmed. Only a day late ;p.

Alright, I've read everything and I'm gonna start with a reads list (made this quite quickly since I won't be here later today.)
Ed S. Town. - Has many good contributions to discussion, trying to keep this game active, quickly replying o questions/asking for opinions etc, and overall a very towny presence. (btw hey there ed )

Magnus D. Neutral. - some of his posts are filler and contradictory, but others are quite useful.

Maria S. Leaning Town. - I agree with most of her points in her posts, most posts are necessary in our discussion but sometimes she repeats things already said by other people.

Wilkinson A. Leaning Scum. - He did confirm in an 'energetic' way but then later on he started RVSing quite late into the day. I would like to see more detailed posts from him.

Rodrick S. Neutral. - The biggest problem I see with them is that he wanted to drag attention to "Ed's scummy opening", but that was pre-game so I don't think its worth it to bring that up. I would also like to see a post from Rodrick about why he thinks Ed S's opening is scummy/Magnus is the towniest player.

Mr. Cheeves. Neutral. - I agree with his post on RVS, but his reasoning for "Magnus and Ed should keep the whole situation to them self" was that it didn't really mean anything and was kinda a joke. If it was a joke that didn't mean anything, then why put it in your post? Some of his posts (or parts of his posts) are not needed in that post, (e.g. "Hope for the best."). Trying to make your posts seem longer?

Mr. Honcho. Leaning Town. - The bringing up of the vig claiming and being roleblocked was quite a necessary topic to be brought up if you ask me, but besides that, he hasn't posted anything else. I would like to see more posts from him.

Mona L. Leaning Town. - Her reply to Ed S's first post was quite towny imo and her post about the vig claiming and getting roleblocked was also towny. Even if you can't have "clear" reads, I would still like you to post whatever reads you currently have.

Kazalie Z. Neutral. - Neutral since she hasn't posted anything that's been helpful yet.

Rhonda R. Leaning Scum. - Her beginning post (the confirmation) showed that she was here, but yet still hasn't posted anything and it's scummy since she has been on, just not posting anything.

EDIT: hm... my avatar looks.. interesting to say the least.
Second Edit: realised it's been more than one day.. oh well, at least I'm here now.

Roderick S. wrote:

i don't like Maria's opening and the immediate opposition to D1 RVS strikes me as scum trying to gain towncred by "moving town forward in the right direction" which is only indicative of town after RVS has been going on for a while and hasn't been fruitful. I also don't see the reasoning for the Mr Cheeves lynch and tonally the "I have a decent reason (explained above) to make this lynch" is really weird it's as if they know they're lynching town so trying to justify that they have a reason for it

Other fallacy I'm noticing just now regarding the bolded section: scum at this point has no clue who else is scum and who is town. I've mentioned my personal issue with tone reading but if this what you mean to imply it doesn't make sense.

Considering deadline is tomorrow (according to Ed) and I might not be able to come on again (mainly due to me not knowing timezones well), I shall lynch Mr.
Cheeves. since I don't think we should let Rhonda die just due to inactivity, though I would like to give her a chance of posting and to defend herself, while Mr Cheeves's defense/comment was just asking for more depth on reads on him. Most of my reasoning is in my reads post above, but I realised the filler/wifom/confusing parts of his posts weigh more to the scummy side than the one point about RVS.

Alright I'll just start this by saying, I don't like vigs. They tend to make a lot of bad decisions if the choice is up to them only. We need to decide together on the vig kill. Leaving it in one person's hand is a very bad decision.

As for my reads, I'm going to start with my 2 biggest scum reads for now: Mona and Kodama.

Mona: I simply did not like Mona's first post, it seemed too much like she was just explaining the setup without saying anything important.

Kodama: A read list where almost everyone is town or neutral doesn't help anyone especially when it is your only post.

Other than these two I find Ed and Maria to be quite towny (especially Maria), and I do agree that we should not let anyone lead the town, decisions on vig kill and lynches should be mad as a group

Also Kodama proceeded to lynch Mr Cheeves even though he doesn't consider him scummy. Read into that what you will. Also don't edit your posts it's illegal. Also KAZAZOOOO.

I clearly said "but I realised the filler/wifom/confusing parts of his posts weigh more to the scummy side than the one point about RVS." (if you didn't understand, it basically meant the scumminess I pointed out weighed more than the one point I agreed on)

About the readlist with mostly town/neutrals as a reason against me, idk if it's just a playstyle thing but imo it's too early to say "Oh, x is definitely scum." No one has done anything REALLY scummy for me to think that they're definitely scum. I just wanted to give my insight on everything that has happened.

Votecount 1.3
******************************
Mr. Cheeves(3)- Ed S., Magnus D., Kodama N.
Rhonda R.(2)- Mr. Cheeves, Maria S.
Magnus D.(1)- Wilkinson A.
Maria S.(1)- Roderick S.
Ed S.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Kodama N.(0)-
Roderick S.(0)-
Mr. Honcho(0)-
Mona L.(0)-
Kazalie Z.(0)-
Not Voting(4)- Mr. Honcho, Mona L., Kazalie Z., Rhonda R.
******************************
There are 11 alive so it takes 6 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Wednesday the 28th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Mr. Cheeves would be lynched.

I have nothing to defend against since the o' so powerful "town" leader is pushing against me. Good Luck town and I'd like suggestions on who the vig should kill after I'm lynched. Call me defeatist, but the reasons you're lynching me (like Kodama, saying that by being inactive you'd rather lynch someone who defended themselves the wrong way) aren't ones I approve of.

My initial read on Kodama N. Is a weak scum lean, but it’s even weaker than my lean on Mona. There’s at least an effort to read people but, as Kazalie brought up, it’s completely town/neutral reads (you can find people scummy without them being “definitely scum.”) I can see why he’d want to shift off of Rhonda, but the reasoning for voting Mr. Cheeves (“what I said above but now it’s scummy instead of neutral”). There’s also the fact this this makes Mr. Cheeves his only scumread right after he’s said “no one has done anything really scummy for me to think that they’re scum.”

@Kodama, though I know you mentioned possibly not being able to get on again pre-deadline: If Mr. Cheeves were to suddenly be confirmed as an Innocent Child, what would you do?

I currently have a weak town lean on Kazalie Z. based on the fact that her reads are clearly her own thoughts as opposed to regurgitating the general consensus. It’s not much though, and I’d appreciate her thoughts on some of the current wagons.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:I have nothing to defend against since the o' so powerful "town" leader is pushing against me. Good Luck town and I'd like suggestions on who the vig should kill after I'm lynched. Call me defeatist, but the reasons you're lynching me (like Kodama, saying that by being inactive you'd rather lynch someone who defended themselves the wrong way) aren't ones I approve of.

This isn’t helpful at all. It shouldn’t matter who’s pushing against you. I’ve explained my reasons for my vote on you, and I’m willing to remove it if you give me a valid reason to do so (my reason and Magnus’s are very different from Kodama’s). Yes, I am going to call you defeatist because that’s what this is. I also still wouldn’t mind your own opinions on the the Vigilante should shoot, or even who would be a better lynch than you today.

Alright I'll do a reads-list, as someone asked. Please keep in mind though, I am currently feeling kind of sick and am not really thinking clearly. Basically, I can grasp the setup and what that means for gameplay, but actual people and who's acting scummy or not is rather difficult. I will still do my best, but keep in mind that my best isn't great right now. (it's also why I've refrained from posting my reads up until now, but seeing as people are actually asking about it, I will try.)

Another thing I want to say, in response to someone mentioning I only had two posts, I may or may not have forgotten that this game was going on for a day in between those, and after that much time went by the ammount of posts was a bit much to deal with.

Anyways, Wilkinson: He confirmed. And lynched for someone's style, guessing that's just RVS things, he might have just forgotten about the game after that. Neutral

Kodama: Well he started with a readslist, but in that readlist he's already being weird. That isn't really scummy though, as scum doesn't know anything right now either. His reasoning on the lynch is confusing (or maybe I just don't get it) Kodama in general is kind of acting strange, his reasoning seriously needs an explanation, yet I don't think scum would be so careless as to let their explanations be as confusing as Kodama's are. Leaning town

Roderick: He hasn't really said much, but what he has said doesn't make sense to me right now. He talks about how opposing RVS makes you scummy, except if you wait long enough it doesn't? He explains why, but it still strikes me as odd. He also mostly posts about someone's confirmation post being scummy, or the fact that there is only a confirmation post being scummy. And that one sentence about thinking Magnus is towny. Leaning scum

Maria: She's been talking a lot, and has mostly made good points. She's been responding to people and has just been acting very towny. Probably town

Magnus: He talks in an annoying way, but he's also active. His way of talking is throwing me off a lot though, so I am not sure if I just don't like him or if I think he's scummy. That's why I'll just leave it at neutral

Mr. Cheeves: I actually think he's town, he seems a bit too defeatist to be scum. I have seen town fight tooth and nail to stay alive and I've seen scum fight tooth and nail to stay alive, but I have yet to see someone who is scum decide to just accept their imminent lynch. Probably town

Mr. Honcho: He's been online and has posted, but it's been very minimal. Leaning scum

Ed: Ed started off the discussion with his post and has overall been posting a lot. His first post is what started all of the discussion and made it so it wasn't just RVS. Strongly leaning town

Kazalie: I'm not sure what Kazalie is doing, but didn't realize the game had started, then has 4 reads with little explanation, then points something out and leaves everyone to make their own conclusions about it. Leaning scum

Rhonda: confirmed. Read: ????!?!?!?

So this is my hopefully somewhat coherent readslist. There you go, prone to change as this game goes on and as I will eventually no longer be sick.

I seem to be getting the impression that people believe I switched my lynch from Mr cheeves to rhonda because i am letting cheeves off the hook and i that i am intending to lynch rhonda because she came online and didnt say anything. I explicitly stated that the lynch switch was just to put pressure on rhonda so that she can talk and that it didnt mean any pressure on cheeves was alleviated. However it seems like mr cheeves has just ignored/disregarded the fact i've written a post explaining in detail the reason why i lynched him in the first place since it still applies regardless of my lynch not currently being on him. Now since my explanation, more scummy points have been raised against cheeves. The fact that he decided to explain a wifom topic in depth despite being aware (raised by ed), and that he's saying unnecessary things in his posts (raised by kodama which i think is a pretty weak argument). It annoys me that despite me saying several times to not discuss wifom topics until at the right moment, he just goes on and does it, especially because something like this is irreversible. Another point I would like to add (which kinda re-enforces the first point) is the fact he says townie points which shows he's aware of what he should do to help town however fails to execute. An example of this is here when he replies to my post about RVS.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:
Also, I feel like applying more pressure to people can really cause them to react differently and hopefully slip.

Putting aside that I have already said/implied this in that same post, he's clearly aware that what he should be doing is applying pressure to people and make them slip, but evidently he's doing nothing of the sort. Instead he decides to try and play defeatist as he has explicitly said and says this.

Mr. Cheeves wrote:I have nothing to defend against since the o' so powerful "town" leader is pushing against me. Good Luck town and I'd like suggestions on who the vig should kill after I'm lynched. Call me defeatist, but the reasons you're lynching me (like Kodama, saying that by being inactive you'd rather lynch someone who defended themselves the wrong way) aren't ones I approve of.

Not only have you just completely disregarded mine and ed's reasoning against you (ed and magnus's initial
reasons stem from my initial reason iirc) and decided to jump on the weakest reason you could find, you also ask for suggestions on who the vig should kill when you could have also given your own suggestions on the vig! All these reasons against you stack up, and the conclusion extracted from it is that you play on the strings of "getting reactions" and other townie ideas just to build a townie facade but in reality is just doing no effort whatsoever to help town.

Now a few other things i want to touch on, although I am happy that more people are talking and being active, Kodama's read list is way too basic which i guess isnt too bad since a lot has already been said. But its the way he lynched mr cheeves that I dont like.

Kodama N. wrote:Considering deadline is tomorrow (according to Ed) and I might not be able to come on again (mainly due to me not knowing timezones well), I shall lynch Mr.
Cheeves. since I don't think we should let Rhonda die just due to inactivity, though I would like to give her a chance of posting and to defend herself, while Mr Cheeves's defense/comment was just asking for more depth on reads on him. Most of my reasoning is in my reads post above, but I realised the filler/wifom/confusing parts of his posts weigh more to the scummy side than the one point about RVS.

The reasoning just seems more like an excuse. You say that you "want to give rhonda a chance to defend herself" yet in reality she has nothing to defend herself from, all thats required of her was to talk which was the purpose of my lynch. Yet clearly you thought that my lynch was permanent since you also said that you "dont think we should let rhonda die". If you were really paying attention to the game then you should have realised that i wouldnt just let rhonda die since i did say that the lynch was just to get her to talk. If we take this point and combine it with the sub-par readlist and weak argument against Mr cheeves, we can imply that Kodama here is trying to get an easy way out without having to pay too much attention the game by joining the lynch train against mr cheeves while masking it with the idea that you are being trying to be useful with the readlist and attempting to think of your own reasons. Of course I am not saying the lynch against cheeves is wrong, I am just saying the way you went about it seems off.

Now in this case there is another explanation to this, it could be that because Kodama late and a lot of big posts have been said, Kodama simply couldnt be bothered to read the whole thread thoroughly/read between the lines but still wanted to write up a post. If thats the case then it wont be scummy as long as the rest of your posts have greater quality. By the way about the repeating other people thing, although I try not to, I sometimes do because either i want to emphasise it or add to it (i am p sure i also give credit to the original player too).

Finally I want to talk about the vig shoot. I definitely think mr cheeves should be lynched today unless he convinces us otherwise but as for the vig shoot, its hard to decide. Although some people are saying Mona is scummy for not scumhunting and just talking about the game mechanics, I think her ideas are good and unique and I want to give her a chance to express her ideas but on scumhunting since thats probably more useful. So i dont think she should be shot. I dont think any of the inactives should be shot except maybe wilkinson because its a bit silly to random lynch after all these posts that actually have lots of content that he could talk about. If I were to shoot someone, I'd currently choose between mr honcho and kodama because of reasons that have already been said.

i'd rather have a vig shoot on mr wilkinson. I dunno, too lazy to read, but I don't like their in and out statement and I do believe they could be traitor os vig. also i admit, i'm probably not as good as contributing to the game so I understand why i would be a decent lynch.

I am here!

I do not care about shit-tier RVS debates!

I care about nothing but my paddle!

I also think that Mr. Cheeves is completely incorrect that I should be the vig shoot! How else will I have the chance to prove mine and my paddle's strength in taking games from behind!

Unlynch Magnus D.

The condom is no longer worthy of a ping pong ball to the face!

But this man is!

Lynch Kodama N.

Fuck making Day One Newspaper Readslists!