Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra (Part 2)

by Cherry P. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:21 am

@kimmy: what reasons do you have for infernando being scum? Ignore any wifom arguments re: bussing and the nightkill, and the stuff where he has bad arguments (which I agree with, for the most part). I want to know what other reasons you have.

by Kimmy S. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:38 am

Infernando G. wrote:Ive already seen that and you didn't bring up the same point i did. Im talking about with Caroline's idea of why I'm town because of the Clara and Emmy thing you wouldnt have been able to convince her otherwise so u didn't try to risk it and played it safe by killing her off

I don't think that's a good point, it's purely tonal and it doesn't have any form of logic at all in it, which I value lower than hard reasoning. Also regarding analysing the night-kill, you saying this clearly means you haven't read the post even if you've seen it.

Infernando G. wrote:I'm gonna reply in parts cause I hate making super long posts. I think it demotivates other people from reading

1. Yes except there is like zero reason for me to "bus" her for as long as I have been pushing for her lynch. Ive been calling her out as scum even before she became scummy. And in a theme with only two scum bussing your partner unless they're really scummy is very unlikely. Not to mention it would also only work if the person bussing is super town cause it would add to them being OP town leader but I'm not that either so I wouldnt have any reason to bus Emmy for as long as I did.
Your plays with Emmy on the other hand are faaaar more likely with u subtly calling her out for being scum but refusing to lynch her and playing it off as thinking i was scummier even after Caroline was pretty much confirmed town. Well not confirmed town but it was confirmed that both me and Caroline weren't scum but yeah.

Uhm no? You started calling them out on scum after Halsey suggested his theory of scum townleader and Caro started obvtowning, it was pretty clear that if the theory held up, Emmy would be the prime candidate to be lynched. You saw this coming and bussed. Also, bussing not only works when you're already super towny, in which case bussing is hardly necessary, but when you're scummy and you need something to springboard you to look towny. Caroline was only confirmed not to be scum when they died, which is after Emmy's flip. And yes, you were far scummier in my eyes, which I've cased you over and over regarding it while Emmy was just general scumminess + PoE.

Infernando G. wrote:2. Ok Kimmy the Dummy u didn't understand what I meant by emotional appeal so let me explain. I'm not referring to your argument itself I'm talking about the extra stuff u add on to arguments that try to guilt trip town into listening to u cause they're afraid of failing. Caroline surely didn't fall for it but u know that its been working on Cherry so thats what u do. Your argument and this are completely different things but if you're asking me to ignore the fact that you're trying to hide the flaws in your case by calling me out for being stupid and talking about how sad it would be "to lose to me" or whatever youve said then I cannot because thats very scummy of u to sweep it under the rug like that.

I never said you were stupid. This is a major discredit on your part. I said there were "good and less-good" people. Cherry never showed signs of being guilt tripped until now, which is AFTER Caroline was killed, which invalidates your whole point of me keeping Cherry alive for that. Also, although yes I have AtE sprinkled in my cases here and there, I didn't make it one of my major points and my main arguments on you are the focal point of my posts. If you're going to call my arguments flawed, point out exactly where it's flawed please. I never said it was sad to lose to you, I can bring up exactly what I said if you wanted to, but it was Cherry themselves who said they were scared of losing to you.

Infernando G. wrote:3. Ok first of all, fite me in reveals call then we'll see who the idiot is hmph
and everything youve said here has like no added importance on what I've said. You just said it gives us both motivation to kill Caroline but u didn't say anything about my point with Caroline town reading me for a very specific reason that I will further explain when I discuss my towniness

Again, I never made a personal attack on you this whole game at all. I've only ever been attacking your argument. Even my AtE was directed towards Cherry/Caroline's arguments. It has no added importance because your points weren't even important to begin with.

Infernando G. wrote:As for the last thing:

There were good points and once again you're not the judge of if its good or not because I personally think all ur points are garbage but that doesn't make them does it Mr.Kimmy Kardashian?

Aaaaand u brought up that point, yes but u obviously said it from your side but I'm saying it from my side which is important for cherry to hear both so its not that i didn't read your post I'm explaining the reasons behind this post as to why it makes u more likely to be scum than me smh

There were good points which I refuted and you never came back to touch, hence making them dead points. I indeed am not the judge of whether it's good, I refute all of your arguments unconditionally. For every one of your arguments you've made against me, you can quote a post and I can quote one of me refuting it. If you think my points are garbage, then do what I'm doing and actually refute them properly rather than go on with your discredit.

There were many points I've said from my point of view, but it's important to account for the other's point of view when making an argument because there are objective statements in there that you cannot ignore if you want to refute the point and counter case me.

by Kimmy S. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:39 am

My "Modify" button wasn't working so lemme make a new post.

Cherry, it's in virtually every post of my D4 ISO, I can pull up some of the more major ones

by Kimmy S. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:40 am

lemme put it out here first that they've been relying on discrediting a lot in D5 before I go quote stuff.

by Cherry P. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:44 am

that would be nice
ill go and check back nevertheless (tomorrow)

by Kimmy S. Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:45 am

Kimmy S. wrote:they said "Jeremiah flipped town and I like their reads" that was the largest explanation given so far iirc.

Kimmy S. wrote:Can I take some post space to say that every read on Infernando as Town for "Too scummy to be scum" is god damn worthless because this reasoning makes no goddamn sense. If you're going to give players a pass for being excessively scummy I swear I'll just lurk every other day every other game I play and quote this on all of you after you guys are revealed.

Kimmy erasing Infernando's cases off the face of the earth so we can move on to lynching them:

OK so there's a recurring theme in Infernando. They make points about people, but more importantly, They never picks them back up. The responses to their points go ignored, and points are just restated or rephrased. Town will make a real case. This is scum shading things, just trying to force a Emmy/Kimmy team onto the town. Why would Scum force a scumteam involving their scumbuddies? Because it seems ever more real when one of the members is scum. Besides, only one more Town needs to be lynched for a scum win. They accuse me of trying to force things through, trying to speed game up, but this is the guy who capslocks "Kimmy/Emmy scum" and tries to force it through with shade and bs and a whole bunch of other things.

Infernando if you are infact capable of reading responses to your posts and looking at posts other than posts that further your agenda please prove it to me. Otherwise, this is (as what Clara said to me) cherry picking, in it's real definition.

Infernando G. wrote:Wow Kimmy back at it again with those points u bring up but don't elaborate. Not everything you said but I'll point them out. I have class in a few minutes so have to go rn but I will be back in 6 hours so further prove ur scumminess.

Kimmy S. wrote:
Infernando G. wrote:points u bring up but don't elaborate.

lemme correct you. points I bring up but you don't read

Kimmy S. wrote:Oh cool Infernando has been writing more stuff I can destroy.

Re: Caroline, the Clara was mostly because they were very.... how do I put it.... they had a lack of presence. Like they would do things, but they weren't very impactful, at least to me, over the span of the game. And I picked up when Clara lynched me because I was beginning to case them and then boom, tried to scare me off the vote, which pinged me majorly.

Infernando G. wrote:ok I'm back

And awww Cherry you're so nice even when u disagree with something. Way to make anon a safe comfortable place where views can be heard. I am proud! Unlike the meanie Kimmy who's too salty to function smh

Anywayyy In the following posts I will prove where Kimmy is wrong with his reads and explain to you guys why no matter what you think or where u are right now that Emmy is the best lynch for today.

"too salty to function"

I'm calmly quoting and pointing out the flaws in your posts. Way to discredit.

Also weren't you deadset on lynching me the whole day then you suddenly pull off and heap on the weaker one?

Infernando G. wrote:Before that: I know life is unpredictable and whatnot but why has Emmy been so incredibly dead TODAY as compared to the others. Like today is the most important day to be active. Seems sketch.

Now this is stretching things. They've already stated they will be inactive, and you shade them for it. How would you find it sketchy when they have a valid reason? Your slot was inactive for 3 whole days dammit.

Cherry P. wrote:
Infernando G. wrote:Ik I wasnt nailing her down for it. I said "life is unpredictable". I just said seems kinda sketch. Didn't make that into a whole big thing

Okay can u elaborate. I want to see your reasons.
kimmy: gut tr, i like his responses to scummy actions, not excessively opportunistic, defenses are townie
caroline: good posts, i like her reasoning, im struggling between townreading her and poe-scumreading her
infernando: v scummy behavior previously e.g. filler/tunnel/not explaining reasoning, still tunneling a bit tbh, emmy/infernando scumteam doesnt make logical sense to me but who knows it could be possible
posts have town feel to them, gut tr
emmy: erratic behavior, especially wrt kimmy/clara, last min change does make probability of emmy/kimmy scumteam higher, didnt really like her defenses, hasnt named anyone who would be scum aside from you

Infernando G. wrote:
2. If you're saying the chance of two town leaders being scum is really small then u need to stop living under a rock and look around you. Almost every mafia sweep in anon is when atleast two of the three scum were very controlling figures. At this point in the game I don't think there even are town leaders with so few people so idk why this is still a point u have to make.
I thought he was saying that there was no reason that two town leaders couldnt be scum?

Cherry, so you basically said that Infernando has "v scummy behavior previously e.g. filler/tunnel/not explaining reasoning, still tunneling a bit tbh" yet you say their posts have a town feel to it. What about this scummy behavior do you feel will come from Town? I don't see any world where Infernando isn't scum here.

I'm down lynching between Emmy/Infernando today, preferably Infernando since Emmy can't come on down and actually prove their scum/town while Infernando has basically scumclaimed to me. Also I missed one of their posts lemme go back and requote.

by **ajhockeystar** Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:07 am

Votecount 6.1
******************************
Infernando G.(1)- Kimmy S.
Kimmy S.(1)- Infernando G.
Cherry P.(0)-
Not Voting(1)- Cherry P.
******************************
There are 3 alive so it takes 2 to hammer. Plurality applies. The town is in LYLO.
Deadline is Thursday the 5th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Infernando G. would be lynched.

by Infernando G. Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:15 am

Cherry P. wrote:
Kimmy S. wrote:
I think this can go in your QT
my qt is locked

Infernando G. wrote:
Your plays with Emmy on the other hand are faaaar more likely with u subtly calling her out for being scum but refusing to lynch her and playing it off as thinking i was scummier even after Caroline was pretty much confirmed town. Well not confirmed town but it was confirmed that both me and Caroline weren't scum but yeah.

evidence for this, please

Infernando G. wrote:Fun Fact: Today I learnt that WIFOM is Wine in front of me and not WHINE in front of me. I was like "What is WIFOM and who r u whining in front of????"
...

Mfw Evidence for that. The evidence is literally everywhere but I'll find the specific posts when I return. I wish the last two days were during the weekend because I'm super busy on weekdays. Nonetheless I will make time to come back in a few hours.
I'll also respond to Kimmy's stuff. Still think he's undermining what he did and making it seem like its a not a big deal when literally everyone who has called him out in the past has seen it. i.e: Jeremiah, Caroline etc

by Emmy A. Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 pm

Bah? Bah.

Bah...bah bah. BAH!

...bah.

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:43 am

Kimmy S. wrote:Uhm no? You started calling them out on scum after Halsey suggested his theory of scum townleader and Caro started obvtowning, it was pretty clear that if the theory held up, Emmy would be the prime candidate to be lynched. You saw this coming and bussed.

Incorrect, infernando has been pushing for an emmy lynch since day 1 (?), when he was pointing out the "i'll do this later" as scummy (terrible reasoning, because I was doing this too and he didnt say anything about it wrt me).

Kimmy S. wrote:
OK so there's a recurring theme in Infernando. They make points about people, but more importantly, They never picks them back up. The responses to their points go ignored, and points are just restated or rephrased. Town will make a real case. This is scum shading things, just trying to force a Emmy/Kimmy team onto the town. Why would Scum force a scumteam involving their scumbuddies? Because it seems ever more real when one of the members is scum. Besides, only one more Town needs to be lynched for a scum win. They accuse me of trying to force things through, trying to speed game up, but this is the guy who capslocks "Kimmy/Emmy scum" and tries to force it through with shade and bs and a whole bunch of other things.

yeah, infernando just dropping points after they get countered is something i really don't like.

This lylo is tripping me up because both Kimmy and Infernando have been incredibly consistent to their previous behavior; infernando continues to tunnel the same person w/o much reasoning and w/ excessive sass, while kimmy has remained extremely calm/logical throughout the whole day.
The bait about my emotional struggles re: losing to infernando (which wasnt bait originally but i realized it could be afterwards) wasn't taken, which is kinda lame.

infernando has been pretty disappointing today, admittedly; he hasn't really brought much of use up (his points were things I already brought up, then he said he'd restate his argument "later" and hasn't done so), and kimmy's brought up a lot of valid reasons as to why infernando could be scum. That being said, I don't really understand why he would be bussing emmy for so long, and emmy did seem to legitimately go after infernando. Emmy had an interesting thing where she would primarily go after one townie, but not push them very hard (jeremiah at first), and she switched almost immediately from jeramiah to infernando after jeremiah died. Could this be because of how late in the game it was? maybe, i'm not sure. I think it's worth mentioning that the catalyst to emmy lynching clara was me saying that an infernando lynch would not be happening, although she could have just potentially been looking for any excuse and I provided a convenient one. I think that the point caroline brought up about infernando not sending fruit incorrectly should he be partnered with emmy makes sense; i suppose that I have to think of whether infernando intentionally played the part of the scummy dummy or if he legitimately was making these mistakes.

kimmy has been... different. He's had very well thought-out arguments and responses, and didnt attempt to guilt trip me despite having the opportunity. Then again, I think one thing i've noticed from kimmy is that he plays extremely safe. His not picking up on any of the opportunities that were present could just be him trying to go towards the safest path for victory - but then, why did he insist that either him or clara should be lynched? was he confident that with both me and a scumpartner (emmy), he wouldn't be lynched, or was he just a town trying to make sure there wouldn't be an unnecessary squabble in lylo? His insistence that emmy lynching clara was a frame rather than the theory I floated does strike me as a bit strange, though. speaking of which, emmy did last-minute switch to save kimmy (and off clara), but as I noted before, the last time she did something similar, both the person she switched from and the person she switched to were town (shepherd and jeremiah, respectively). Is this the same case, or was she really trying to save her partner. Worth of note is that emmy refused to say a read on anyone except for infernando, and kimmy was arguing very hard to lynch someone other than emmy (infernando). There was valid reasoning involved, yes, but i've gotta wonder whether or not he was trying to save his scumbuddy. I think something also of note is that kimmy's continuously saying that infernando kept me alive as a "neutral" party, despite this being countered by my final post (technically after deadline). Kimmy's reaction to me stating this also seemed genuine, which makes me think that he never actually saw that post. His continuous expressiveness of keeping me around as a neutral option could actually be reflecting his mindset before the day began, meaning he had already prepped his argument if the nightkill was brought into contention. Why would he ever have an argument prepared unless he was scum and he knew how the nightkill was going to land? I can understand having a general argument ready like I did, but going so specific as to why person 2 killed person 3 seems a bit off. it fits with kimmy's general safe playstyle as well, since keeping the neutral party alive is much better than attempting a frame by killing me off instead of caro.

i'm rambling a bit here, but this is mostly for other cherry to know where my head's at. I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:44 am

tl;dr i'm thinking about whether an emmy/infernando scumteam was playing the long con with this egregious amount of bussing/scumminess/mistake-making and whether or not they really have been working since eod4 to frame kimmy.
kimmy's hard to read but I think there are valid points against him, especially ones that can't really be discounted aside from bringing up a WIFOM argument. the fact that that's the only way to counter them also irks me, though, because there's no real way to know whether i'm right or not - i just have to go with my gut.

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:45 am

worth mentioning that kimmy/emmy does fulfill the scumteam jeremiah brought up, albeit the scumteams he brought up included half of the game which does lessen the weight of them by a fair amount

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:45 am

aj can i have an extension ;w;

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:33 am

omg I'm sorry I'm busy ;-; I'm trying to respond as much as i can Sad

(

idk when you're gonna make ur decision but i will definitely say my final points a few hours before deadline.
I haz school rn though

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:44 am

ok but honestly think about it, this game started with 11 players and only two scum, How could Emmy an I have possibly predicted that the bussing would go well? It only ever does when one s a town leader and neither of us were. If this was a three person scum team I couldd see some reason to that but it doesn't make sense for me to be bussing her since day 1 and then still keeping my lynch on when Ive had multiple chances to switch the lynch by pretending to be my partner like Caroline said.
Emmy/Me scum team has had multiple chances to end the game by now but I didn't take any of them so theres unless I'm absolutely retarded, there is no reason for me to be scum with her. Thats kind of like saying you're scum rn and u just haven't hammered which is stupid cause you're not just gonna let the chance slide when you're scum. Jimmy on the other hand was so reluctant to do anything about Emmy and Emmy wouldnt force a read on him because there were only five people alive and she didn't want to get on anyones bad side. It makes more sense as mafia to buddy up against a town during 2v5 lylo than mafia to constantly buss against each other since day 1.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that Emmy didn't even think i was scum until the day before Lylo where as Ive been calling her out before that. If we were actually planning on the bus she would have started it way before when she really needed to tunnel me since I was tunneling her and kimmy so hard

Thats all i have time to say id like to think ill be here before deadline and ill really try because this is probably like the only time I've ever been sure of the scum team in anon so whatever ur decision is I'm very proud of myself Very Happy

But I hopefully you'll consider all the FACTS and understand that I'm just terrible at wording my points and make the right decision <3 <3 <3

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:46 pm

im waiting all the way till deadline lol

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:48 pm

Infernando G. wrote:ok but honestly think about it, this game started with 11 players and only two scum, How could Emmy an I have possibly predicted that the bussing would go well? It only ever does when one s a town leader and neither of us were. If this was a three person scum team I couldd see some reason to that but it doesn't make sense for me to be bussing her since day 1 and then still keeping my lynch on when Ive had multiple chances to switch the lynch by pretending to be my partner like Caroline said.

that's fair, and a reason i'm having a hard time believing in an emmy/infernando team.

Infernando G. wrote:
Emmy/Me scum team has had multiple chances to end the game by now but I didn't take any of them so theres unless I'm absolutely retarded, there is no reason for me to be scum with her.

sorry, can you elaborate? in lylo the only two lynches were on you and emmy, lol.

Infernando G. wrote:
Another thing I forgot to mention is that Emmy didn't even think i was scum until the day before Lylo where as Ive been calling her out before that. If we were actually planning on the bus she would have started it way before when she really needed to tunnel me since I was tunneling her and kimmy so hard

not necessarily, bussing doesn't have to go both ways. Interestingly, here you admit to tunneling both emmy and kimmy :O

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:27 pm

actually may have to figure out who im lynching a bit b4 dl, since ive got somethign to do while dl is happening

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:46 pm

okie i am back and I should be here for the next two ish hours so ill elaborate on those things after i eat

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:52 pm

Clara H. wrote:As far as Cherry goes, I don't think scum would be daring enough to say they have daytalk, especially when neither side do. And Cherry, I would love to see a reason for it as it is past RVS stage

FUCK WHY DID I NEVER SEE THIS FIRST PART

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:53 pm

whats that

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:53 pm

the exact thing i hard townread dr proctor for and prob wouldnt have lynched clara for if i had remembered

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm

rip

by Cherry P. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:54 pm

rip indeed

by Infernando G. Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 pm

~~I still don't know what thats about so ill pretend like i do~~

Its okay <3

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