Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Lynch Jeremiah W. I'd venture to say that even Dr. Proctor has put forth more effort to find scum than Jeremiah, as while Dock Prock was inactive for much of Day 1 his post near the end of the day shows an effort to put forth original content without much prodding directed at him, while it took heavy pushing to get even a readlist from Jeremiah, and I have problems with those reads despite their high detail (some of these things are what I wanted to mention during last night's in-between phase).

-Firstly, you gave a few questions at one point and I mentioned liking the effort. I also mentioned wanting to see where you went with them, and you didn't really go anywhere. One example is that you asked about my thoughts on a comment from Clara, and after I answered it there was no mention of that answer and how it affected your opinions on either of us.

-You have a scumlean on Dr. Proctor due to his lack of content, but Infernando having next to no content is apparently offset by the fact that the members of his hydra can't agree on something and Shepherd also having no content makes him completely null. I don't see how these differences cause a difference in how you read them.

-Your scumlean on Kimmy seems primarily motivated by a difference in playstyle and, as I mentioned yesterday, you leave yourself an out by saying "this doesn't mean that he has to be scum himself."

-As mentioned yesterday you have a number of scumleans but go on to vote none of them. You back off on your Anima read with no clear indicator of what motivated the opinion shift, and even in the post where you list her as your strongest scumread you include the caveat of "there's a good chance statistically that she's a townie" and that becomes your reasoning for not lynching her (and then you still go on to say "I am not opposed to an Anima lynch").


Also, there were six people yesterday who didn't vote.  Considering that lynches are not locked in when they are placed I don't see the point in not using your lynch. I went back to check people's possible reasons for not lynching and:

Anima-Anima.

Caroline-This actually strikes me as odd. Both members of the hydra were apparently hoping the other could help them out in deciding who to vote, and one mentioned possibly lynching Shepherd as a way to pressure him into posting Day 2. The question I have here is why ask what we thought about it instead of just doing it, especially since it had a low chance to affect the lynch?

Doccity doc of the pricky pricky proc (I had to steal that line from Caroline at least once)-I find it a bit odd that your post didn't have a comment on Anima (since she was the top wagon at the time), but Anima then again didn't have a ton of posts. I sort of get not wanting to vote if you didn't have a ton of time to read through everything, so imo be more active today. (Actually, I think your lynch was still on Cherry but this applies still, as it was a randlynch, but then again the votecount doesn't show it so maybe I missed something?)

Jeremiah W.-See above.

Cherry P.-Unlynched Halsey at one point due to wanting to reread but looking over your posts I don't think you were satisfied with what you saw (with the way you continued challenging him and bringing up points such as why his plan would be fake. If you in fact weren't satisfied, why not relynch? It feels like an odd way to start backing off the lynch and prompted me to go back and look at your Jeremiah unlynch, and there isn't a lot of interaction with him after it. (I think I mentioned this already and your response was along the lines of "I was scumreading Halsey more.") You did mention you think he wasn't reading your logic properly, but what do you think of him in terms of alignment?

Infernando G.-I mentioned this earlier during Day 1. There's definitely hydra problems going on here, but neither of the two have given many thoughts on anything and the point I made about one of them being upset about the unlynch yet not relynching stands still.

Obviously not voting=/=instant scum, but I guess I’m just pissed that a lot of people seemed like they’d have concrete reasons to vote someone and didn’t. So...yeah. Vote.


Despite my problems with Jeremiah's readlist, it does bring up a number of good points, most notably regarding Clara. I feel her playstyle has been under the radar so far. The issue with her null reads have been brought up, and it feels off that she mentions people are misunderstanding her read on Halsey but doesn't make an effort to clear it up. There's also not a lot of interaction with Halsey (she puts off reading his posts twice) despite her lynch being on him. This makes it seem like she's less concerned with figuring out Halsey's alignment and more concerned with finding someone to push.


Also I’ll just say now, I don’t think we should use our second fruit circle tonight but rather save it for a scenario such as mylo or pre-mylo. I’m pretty sure others share this opinion as well, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page.

Ok, so before deadline hit Emmy went off on my last posts and apparently considered trying to shift the lynch to me. She discussed how the way I’m expressing my scumreads gives me a lot of leeway to shift my opinions later on when it “benefits me to scumread someone else”. The issue I have with this is that she reads me entirely under the assumption that I am scum, without any evidence. If I am town, my scumreading is ideally to the benefit of the town by finding mafia. It’s easy to make a post look bad when you look at it under the assumption that the poster is mafia. Emmy’s post in that context looks like she’s setting up her lynch target for day 2. After lynching an inactive townie day 1, she sees me as someone who has been generally considered scummy by most of the game and that it would probably be fairly easy to get me voted out. However, I have very little evidence to back that up, and she could just as likely be a concerned townie that tends to look at people under the assumption that they are mafia, which it seems like she tends to do a lot.

She also called me out for being sort of back and forth on Anima. I’ll go through the thought process I went through on her because it is admittedly hard to follow. When she was simply inactive I just lumped her in with the other 3 that hadn’t posted much up to that point (Infernando, Proctor, Shepherd). After she made the poor decisions of asking for scumreads and then posting the bolded question mark, I had a feeling she was going to get lynched. I knew that the posts she made combined with her inactivity was scummier than what anyone else had done up to that point, and I read it as such. However, it didn’t strike me as posts that would be coming from someone who really knew what they were doing. I wouldn’t expect anyone who has played this game more than once or twice to respond that way to pressure, or to simply make no attempt to defend themself. When I see someone in those games acting like that, it is generally a townie that just didn’t really get how forum mafia works, and they usually get lynched in the first 2 days. When I said that she is statistically likely to be town, I was referring to the fact that most people who respond like that to pressure and then stop posting are new players that don’t get how to play forum mafia. With that in mind, I understood that other than Anima potentially being a number for town, she really wasn’t ever going to provide much in terms of activity or scumhunting for town, and for that reason I was ok with her getting lynched.

In games like this, there is a good chance that most accounts have at least one player that knows what they’re doing in these anon games. When that is the case, simply sitting around and waiting for someone to make a post that outs them as scum is pointless because the mafia likely knows how to seem clean. Finding scum is harder when it’s like this, but obviously not impossible. You have to look for the people that seem to be looking to help town, but really aren’t doing much at all to actually help them win. I usually look for people who are scumreading based on something that isn’t logical, like a pre-game post. The way Kimmy made his reads day 1 seemed to match this quite a bit to me. He gave too much weight to certain things (yelled scum at Anima after her post asking for scumreads, lynched Halsey after accusing him of contributing nothing) instead of simply pointing them out and asking for explanations. The only difference between his scumreads on Halsey and Anima was that Halsey responded and called him out on his reads. If Anima had responded in the same way that Halsey did and properly defended herself, she very well could have survived day 1. Although the sample size in this game is way to small to make conclusions, historically in these games calling out the first scummy thing people do and lynching them for it hasn’t worked out so well. Scum factions have won exactly two thirds of these anon games, lots of times without losing a single member. Expecting mafia to be dumb enough to make actions that would out themselves as scum early on is foolish behavior, and lynching the low hanging fruit every day is just going to result in town death after town death. Going after people who act like they're looking for scum without ever making a logical read is the way to find the mafia, and so far the person that fits that profile to me is Kimmy.

Emmy A. wrote:-You have a scumlean on Dr. Proctor due to his lack of content, but Infernando having next to no content is apparently offset by the fact that the members of his hydra can't agree on something and Shepherd also having no content makes him completely null. I don't see how these differences cause a difference in how you read them.

I've tended to lump those three (and Anima yesterday) in my head as almost one and the same due to their inactivity, at least at the time when I made my readlist which was before Infernando and Proctor started to pick up their activity. The lack of activity made it hard to get solid reads on any of them, so I ranked them among themselves based on personal feel.

Dr. Proctor had promised at post, and at the time that post was 2 hours late. Since I was expecting activity from him, it struck me as more scummy that he hadn't posted yet. Infernando and Shepherd hadn't posted much, if at all during the day or two before my readlist was posted. Since I had no idea whether they were planning to post or get subbed out (Infernando was the former, Shepherd the latter), I had no basis on which to make an actual read for them, so I labeled them neutral.

I received fruit last night, if that helps. I'm not sure. I'm bad at typing large and bulky paragraphs. On a second note, thoughts on potential disagreements between hydra heads thus far?

After finishing those posts I just checked my quicktopic.

I Did Not receive fruit last night.

is getting fruit even relevant when there are no deaths?
smdh at infernando idling
I did get fruit last night, though

a bit tired so not gonna post much today, hopefully my new partner can pitch in (I didn't catch them up at all because i'm a lazy shit, but that also prevents my own biases from affecting them which is... nice I suppose?).

quick comment on our second fruit cycle: we shouldnt be using it on mylo (unless you mean the night before mylo e.g. we go from 2v5 to 2v4 with the lynch, which is probably still a bad idea lol) because the mafia just send in a kill and win the game
we should probably save it till after we're 1-2 lynches in, assuming we dont off the mafia by then

What "evidence" do you suggest I find aside from my own reads? In terms of motivation, I don't see why town would, rather than trying to learn more about the people they scumread, simply add phrases such as "statistically more likely to be town" and "doesn't mean he has to be scum." Things like that basically turn your scumreads into null reads and does so in a way that it looks like you're trying to appear helpful while keeping your options open, which doesn't come from a town mindset.

I'm confused with your paragraph on Anima. You say that you read her as scummier than anyone else, but in the same paragraph say that you felt her play was coming from a townie who didn't get how forum mafia works. (1) What indicated that it came from a townie specifically (as opposed to scum who didn't understand) and (2) why not just say that outright? The problem I have with your comment of being okay with her being lynched is that you did so while saying she was likely town. There was no active effort to lynch scum; it felt like passive "devil's advocate" play where you were trying to sheep the Anima wagon without getting any dirt on your hands for lynching her.

You comment that waiting around for someone to make a post that outs them as scum is pointless, which is true and is thus why you pressure people. I interpret what you were doing to be waiting around because I didn't see a lot of attempts to pressure people from you. Even with Cherry you made a comment of "This is a really weird slot, that I would appreciate more pressure on" but didn't question her yourself (which is another thing I have trouble seeing as coming from a town mindset). Meanwhile, the idea that people who are scummy are just town who got off to a bad start (if I'm interpreting you correctly) is something dependent on both the content and context of their post, and with Anima I definitely didn't (and still don't) understand why she decided to just respond with a bolded question mark and be intentionally vague. Lynching someone for the first scummy thing they do actually isn't what we did in this case; if it was Cherry would have been lynched. I apparently misinterpreted much of Cherry's early game play, and moved on to pressuring you and later Anima. Of the three, Anima's reaction to the pressure was by far the worst.

Regarding Proctor, what does he gain as scum from making a promise he doesn't intend to keep? He'd be completley aware as either alignment that it would bring undue suspicion on him if he never followed up. (Phrased differently, I don't see why Proctor as scum would promise to make a post with the intention of not following up, and I think the fact in itself is a null-tell.)

I'll go back to look at Kimmy's readlist for at the lack of logic in his reads that you mention, though at the moment I'm not in a place where I can reliably post.

Cherry P. wrote:is getting fruit even relevant when there are no deaths?
smdh at infernando idling
I did get fruit last night, though

The purpose of the fruit circle was to ensure there were no deaths. I have no clue what Infernando was intending by not passing fruit, so I hope he shows up soon to comment.

Now that I look at my QT, due to my partner subbing in late, we never actually sent in a fruit action. I wonder if AJ took that as idling. Whoever I was supposed to fruit, can you comment?

Shepherd D. wrote:Now that I look at my QT, due to my partner subbing in late, we never actually sent in a fruit action. I wonder if AJ took that as idling. Whoever I was supposed to fruit, can you comment?

That would be Caroline.

As far as hydra disagreement goes, I don't think it's alignment indicative. I forget if I mentioned it before, but differing opinions are imo a natural part of hydras.

I finally got the time to look back at Kimmy's reads; they don't seem black and white to me. None of them strike me as an early locktown or lockscum, especially with this post in which he reevaluates them:

Kimmy S. wrote:
Overall, I still think Halsey is town, also interested to know if this is a solo hydra.

Anima is probably not going to come back in time to see their lynch, so I think we're all in agreement to fruit down/to the right of the Player List?

Caroline's most recent post about scumtenders irked me somewhat, but I still remain my townlean on them, however diminished it might be currently.

Emmy had a few solid responses to stuff, but few self-originated points come from them.

I think I have a slight scumlean on Cherry, after reading them a little more, the points I made earlier don't stand very well to scrutiny (1 vote plurality isn't a lot, pushable people going in and out). Most especially, I didn't like the unvote, when coupled with the reasoning of " I'd want to question halsey more before re-deciding how I feel about him".

Jeremiah is still pretty   rn, since my previous argument about them no longer stands (nothing contentful), but I don't know how to read them now either.

Everyone else is either too insignificant for me to notice or that I don't feel like giving a read on right now.

Actually, wait. Shepherd, you said "my partner." Was there a reason you yourself weren't able to send fruit?

Cherry P. wrote:quick comment on our second fruit cycle: we shouldnt be using it on mylo (unless you mean the night before mylo e.g. we go from 2v5 to 2v4 with the lynch, which is probably still a bad idea lol) because the mafia just send in a kill and win the game
we should probably save it till after we're 1-2 lynches in, assuming we dont off the mafia by then

I was saying we should use it for pre-mylo/lylo situations or mylo itself if we NL then (gives us either an extra day of discussion or a confscum in the following lylo. I'm not understanding what's bad about using it in a pre-mylo though.

That was unclear. I mean if the day is in a pre-mylo, pre-lylo, or mylo situation, we should fruit the following night (No Lynching if the game is in mylo).

Shepherd D. wrote:Now that I look at my QT, due to my partner subbing in late, we never actually sent in a fruit action. I wonder if AJ took that as idling. Whoever I was supposed to fruit, can you comment?

I don't have enough time to look at everything so I'll just comment on this because it strikes me as scum
Why would you need to discuss the fruiting? I sent my fruit without any discussion, as it's obvious where the fruit has to go to if you read day 1. So why would Shepherd need to discuss it? The only reason I can see is because he is also needing to decide whether or not to kill, and whether or not to fruit. It explains the no deaths, as I believe he did just not end up sending anything

Emmy: I have explained my reasons for Hasley as best as I can. If you don't understand it then I see no way of making you understand it

Alsooo I got a fruit last night

So I saw some offline posts. From the looks of it, Clara and Cherry got subs right?

Looking at Cherry then and her response to my posts, I'd dare say that Cherry was solo as her responses towards everybody after numerous times were concise and backed up the previous posts. What Jeremiah said about Cherry being frustrated town and Cherry saying bingo iirc then fully confirms the aggressive side being the frustrated side. Also the fact that Cherry doesn't look back at name tag (which I'll buy) means more power to Cherry's responses.

I just wanted to throw that in there after I saw the sub reply before I forget. Right now I'm really tired, so I'll post tomorrow when I have time.

Btw Clara, please respond to my post read about you (that huge wallpost). Don't you dare ignore me...

Also I will give some thoughts about this..

Emmy: Regarding Proctor, what does he gain as scum from making a promise he doesn't intend to keep? He'd be completley aware as either alignment that it would bring undue suspicion on him if he never followed up. (Phrased differently, I don't see why Proctor as scum would promise to make a post with the intention of not following up, and I think the fact in itself is a null-tell.)


About Proctor himself...

AND, about Jeremiah after discussing some stuff with my double via quicktopic.

I'm just too tired right now so deal with it. Right now what you guys should be doing is calling back on some stuff from day 1 (nearby end) and pick up from where day 1 ended plus Anima stuff (some interesting stuff might have come up from that lynch. I will look into that myself obv and try the get the most I can from that).

Before I leave, trying to remember what Kimmy posted before aj deleted it.

Ugh, can't remember. He'll post it anyways so whatever. Also remembered what I forgot to post. I confirmed to have received a fruit from Clara and my fruit was passed to Shepherd as discussed.

And aj posted the subs.. (I need sleep. Missed that so hard).

Well yeah, will have some nice stuff to post because of quicktopic double giving some nice insights. Night!

I got fruit yesterday, just keeping this on the desk

Regarding what Halsey said, it was deleted for some reason, so let's keep it at that

Posting in 4 hours

Ok nvm my hydramate will keep you occupied

Emmy A. wrote:Actually, wait. Shepherd, you said "my partner." Was there a reason you yourself weren't able to send fruit?

It was more of a quicktopic issue. My partner was inactive and subbed out, and the sub happened when I was AFK, and thus we were never able to agree on a mutual fruit target. Thus I'd like to know if Caroline got fruit.



Edit: I'd also like to note that Doctor Proctor has been incredibly inactive today. Is there a reason for this? Where's the Doc?

Clara H. wrote:

Shepherd D. wrote:Now that I look at my QT, due to my partner subbing in late, we never actually sent in a fruit action. I wonder if AJ took that as idling. Whoever I was supposed to fruit, can you comment?

I don't have enough time to look at everything so I'll just comment on this because it strikes me as scum
Why would you need to discuss the fruiting? I sent my fruit without any discussion, as it's obvious where the fruit has to go to if you read day 1. So why would Shepherd need to discuss it? The only reason I can see is because he is also needing to decide whether or not to kill, and whether or not to fruit. It explains the no deaths, as I believe he did just not end up sending anything

Emmy: I have explained my reasons for Hasley as best as I can. If you don't understand it then I see no way of making you understand it

The problem was that first off, my partner subbed out and thus didn't know the plan first off... Secondly, we both agreed on following the plan but neither of us actually bolded the fruit target by the end of the night. This is why I need Caroline's input, if idles are forced if an action is not sent.