Game 16: Modified Execution

Kimimaro D. wrote:

Lakoko H. wrote:1. I still think that we should shoot Brad but It should be up for vote And if you guys think that shooting Zack is a better option Then so be it. tbh we have a great 8v2 rn so we have about 3 misshots before we need to start getting worried

2. I honestly think that picking Vicky to be the one who shoots our choice is the best option we have. I seem to be the most obvious choice for maf and that's exactly why there is an about equal chance of me not being corrupted. I know that if I was maf I would predict town to see rule shooter out for getting gun and I would instead corrupt someone else that contributed day 1. But then again I am the safe pick so l I give a 50% chance of me being the corrupted, 30% for Dorian and 20% for hinata. corrupting Vicky is something I don't find mafia even considering due to how scummy she was D1 and the only way Vicky would be corrupted is for mafia to have some sick 3 leveled predictions or mafia tricking town into giving vicky the gun but since I'm the one promoting giving her the gun, Im gonna bet my life on it

Also this, she did give reasons as to why she votes Vicky. At this point, I don't care who gets the gun, and I'm split between Brad/Lakoko. We have 3 possibilities: They're both town, One is Mafia and the others isn't, or, and this one is a long run but it could work... They're both mafia, and they'll clear eachother by pushing for the lynch on the other.

Kimimaro D. wrote:Oh, I'm not agreeing with you. I've decided I'll remain neutral, since neither of you look like mafia in my eyes. I'm going with Marina U, no matter what. I wouldn't pick between either of you. Also, Lakoko was on earlier, I really wanted to see a response from her. Maybe still reading? I don't know.

Still, I'm questioning Marina U. She hasn't been active at all, despite being subbed, and the point Lakoko brings up about Kokojo's first vote.

I think I have the gun on Hinata, but if I don't already, Vote Hinata W.

Still seeing you as a very townie player.

Which, speaking of, when you get on, Hinata, can you provide some opinions on everything?


Oh, A new message has been posted while you were writing your response. Please
review the new message posted below and decide if you want to modify
your response or continue posting as written.... rip, you did respond. Lets see.

You said this end day BW? Where did I say that I wanted to shoot Lakoko. Iirc, I said that I'm neutral between them. I'm pushing for Marina to be shot, not Lakoko. I actually talked about how Lakoko shouldn't be shot, since she is, in fact, helpful.

It did look scummy that her vote was changed from Hinata to Vicky so quickly. Then Hinata and I BW'd, so I don't know. I'm more comfortable with Hinata due to reasons above, such as: Vicky not wanting to listen to the "town decides" rule and stating who she will shoot, and then changing her mind rapidly.

FFS, stop posting while I post and making my points redundant ;_;

Also, I looked back at Day 1. Lakoko shot Kokojo based off of.... 2 posts? Either, you're an amazing scumhunter, or you're just lucky? Not sure.

Brad P. wrote:Lakoko, I have read the literal words somewhere where you said that I said you were a scum team with 2 others, I have read the literal words where you said that I said you were scum. Those quotes, I can find them. I did find them in fact, I showed them. You never bring any actual quotes though, you never bring any evidence that what you say is true.

Brad P. wrote:

Lakoko H. wrote:Brad. I said that I will shoot kokojo

I must have missed that then, sorry.

Lakoko H. wrote:And BTW Brad's determination for taking me down insufferable.
Even before I shot he made it clear that he thinks I'm maf without any reasoning and he even tried to put the 2 who voted me and I as a (insert about 5 possibles here) scum team

I didn't say I thought you were mafia, I stated a possibility, if I remember correctly, you said that we should point out anything odd about you anyways. I am pointing out everything odd that I can find about you, so people don't ignore you. Yes, it makes me scummy, but if you end up being mafia I at least get the satisfaction of saying "I was right to suspect him"

Kimimaro D. wrote:Alright so, I looked back on some things.

1. We started 8v3. We do have at least 1 misfire. It's 8v2 right now. (skipping ahead here)
~Brad P: Very little pro town help, and some posts getting at our most "pro town" player being scum. Also, some lurking early game.

Lurking? Lurking? So many people didn't do shit at day 1, I said things I tried to get discussions started, and you say I was LURKING?

Now, I see where this is going, this is going towards vicky getting the gun, from here there are 2 options, both involving me truly believing lakoko is scum. Now let me explain this real quick, because it's not as weird as it might sound, don't you think it's very convenient that lakoko got the gun day 1 and shot the mafia? I think it's highly unlikely that would happen to a towny, now this is of course only a game of chance. Lakoko might have just been lucky. She scumread 2 people, 1 mafia and vicky, now vicky can be 1 of 3 things in the case that lakoko is mafia. She could be a corrupted townie and lakoko is taking the chance to take out vicky, using the excuse that mafia would need to predict very well to get her, HIGHLY UNLIKELY. The other thing is that maybe vicky is mafia helping lakoko's plan. HIGHLY UNLIKELY. The third, it's obvious, vicky is town, she shoots me. Simple enough right? pretty obvious. But. Look at my posts, and look at what people have been claiming I've been saying, especially lakoko, I don't have anything against lakoko, except for that she's towny. TOO towny. Look back at other psanon games, who were the mafia? the towny people. Still following me? What did the mafia do to the same person every time? They twisted their words around, seeing a pattern here? Mafia is towny, really towny, they offer up their own members and then twist around words of others to fit their strategy. Lakoko keeps claiming I have something against him, but where did I ever say that? nowhere, I just did as he told I should, point out those little scummy things about him, as he isn't confirmed. Lakoko claimed that I don't form any opinions, yet also claimed that on day 1 I said he was scum with 2 other people, neither of those are correct. I form opinions, I form many more than most people do, every time I say something about lakoko's scummy actions, I am forming an opinion about the action. I never said he was a scumteam with those other 2 either, I said it was odd how those 2 voted for him and talked about the possible things that would bring IF lakoko was scum.

tl;dr, I didn't have a problem with lakoko, that was a lie from lakoko. I didn't say lakoko was scum, I never have until now. That was another lie from lakoko. See where I'm going? Lakoko is painting me as obvious scum, something that has happened to town people all the time in the past games, something that has been done by mafia members who seemed oh so towny all the time in the past games. There is a pattern. When I die, which will happen unless vicky decides to start listening to the people who are thinking logically and would rather shoot the person not even TRYING to contribute, think about everything I said, read through my posts, read through lakoko's reactions on them. Read through everything that interacted with me, as you will see then that I am town, and when you see I am town, you'll also see it's undeniable that lakoko is really scummy. When I die, when you see that I am actually town, trust me, simply trust me. Read what I have said and listen to it, knowing that it comes from a cleared towny. A cleared overconfident towny that believes they are always right about who is the mafia, because they always are. And that is why the mafia always takes them out first.

Brad P. wrote:well that's the info we have so far, up until now lakoko has been one of the more contributing people, for now I'll assume she's town, though my experience tells me that often the active people are mafia on forums, so I'll get back to that later. I'm thinking we have a few options for who to shoot, there is as lakoko pointed out vicky and kokojo, and as I pointed out a possible, possible, mind you, zenkiti + kimimaro + lakoko connection, that, to me, leaves 3 options.

Vicky and kokojo are just mainly because of what lakoko already pointed out.

The third option to me would be kimimaro, lakoko contributes and zenkiti started about lakoko so he might be a town member who geniunely thinks lakoko is town, while kimimaro latched onto it to say lakoko is towny, sure it's a small risk to take in the case that I am right, though it would also mean a risk for zenkiti, in this theory that would mean a bit of a risk factor onto a town member while possibly just taking away risks for themselves.

Lakoko H. wrote:Okay I can finally quote so im gonna point ou teverything wrong with Brad's statements against me which is basically everything.

Brad P. wrote:Lakoko, I have read the literal words somewhere where you said that I said you were a scum team with 2 others, I have read the literal words where you said that I said you were scum. Those quotes, I can find them. I did find them in fact, I showed them. You never bring any actual quotes though, you never bring any evidence that what you say is true.

Okay so I first want to point out that no, I did not in any of my posts said that you have directly stated that I am maf and if you found one as you claim if you could kindly quote it that would be great. As i have stated before, I have no problem with how he is going out against me but up until one of his previous posts. This one:

I'll get the proof. I have quoted it a few times but I'll do it again.

Brad P. wrote:

Lakoko H. wrote:Brad. I said that I will shoot kokojo

I must have missed that then, sorry.

Lakoko H. wrote:And BTW Brad's determination for taking me down insufferable.
Even before I shot he made it clear that he thinks I'm maf without any reasoning and he even tried to put the 2 who voted me and I as a (insert about 5 possibles here) scum team

I didn't say I thought you were mafia, I stated a possibility, if I remember correctly, you said that we should point out anything odd about you anyways. I am pointing out everything odd that I can find about you, so people don't ignore you. Yes, it makes me scummy, but if you end up being mafia I at least get the satisfaction of saying "I was right to suspect him"

Kimimaro D. wrote:Alright so, I looked back on some things.

1. We started 8v3. We do have at least 1 misfire. It's 8v2 right now. (skipping ahead here)
~Brad P: Very little pro town help, and some posts getting at our most "pro town" player being scum. Also, some lurking early game.

Lurking? Lurking? So many people didn't do shit at day 1, I said things I tried to get discussions started, and you say I was LURKING?

Now, I see where this is going, this is going towards vicky getting the gun, from here there are 2 options, both involving me truly believing lakoko is scum. Now let me explain this real quick, because it's not as weird as it might sound, don't you think it's very convenient that lakoko got the gun day 1 and shot the mafia? I think it's highly unlikely that would happen to a towny, now this is of course only a game of chance. Lakoko might have just been lucky. She scumread 2 people, 1 mafia and vicky, now vicky can be 1 of 3 things in the case that lakoko is mafia. She could be a corrupted townie and lakoko is taking the chance to take out vicky, using the excuse that mafia would need to predict very well to get her, HIGHLY UNLIKELY. The other thing is that maybe vicky is mafia helping lakoko's plan. HIGHLY UNLIKELY. The third, it's obvious, vicky is town, she shoots me. Simple enough right? pretty obvious. But. Look at my posts, and look at what people have been claiming I've been saying, especially lakoko, I don't have anything against lakoko, except for that she's towny. TOO towny. Look back at other psanon games, who were the mafia? the towny people. Still following me? What did the mafia do to the same person every time? They twisted their words around, seeing a pattern here? Mafia is towny, really towny, they offer up their own members and then twist around words of others to fit their strategy. Lakoko keeps claiming I have something against him, but where did I ever say that? nowhere, I just did as he told I should, point out those little scummy things about him, as he isn't confirmed. Lakoko claimed that I don't form any opinions, yet also claimed that on day 1 I said he was scum with 2 other people, neither of those are correct. I form opinions, I form many more than most people do, every time I say something about lakoko's scummy actions, I am forming an opinion about the action. I never said he was a scumteam with those other 2 either, I said it was odd how those 2 voted for him and talked about the possible things that would bring IF lakoko was scum.

tl;dr, I didn't have a problem with lakoko, that was a lie from lakoko. I didn't say lakoko was scum, I never have until now. That was another lie from lakoko. See where I'm going? Lakoko is painting me as obvious scum, something that has happened to town people all the time in the past games, something that has been done by mafia members who seemed oh so towny all the time in the past games. There is a pattern. When I die, which will happen unless vicky decides to start listening to the people who are thinking logically and would rather shoot the person not even TRYING to contribute, think about everything I said, read through my posts, read through lakoko's reactions on them. Read through everything that interacted with me, as you will see then that I am town, and when you see I am town, you'll also see it's undeniable that lakoko is really scummy. When I die, when you see that I am actually town, trust me, simply trust me. Read what I have said and listen to it, knowing that it comes from a cleared towny. A cleared overconfident towny that believes they are always right about who is the mafia, because they always are. And that is why the mafia always takes them out first.

I have so many problems with this one because he builds his whole "speculation" on incorrect facts and logical fallacies.

1. Me twisting his words. I have never stated that he ever stated directly that I'm mafia and I wouldn't have said anything against him if he would have done that from start. My problem is that up until then he did everything in this "speculation" formula where you say something against someone but it is all in indirect matter with a lot of "maybe" and "perhaps" and constantly remind us of how insacure he is or how much he isnt sure. This insanely Shove-it-your-face Naivity is something that I just don't find believable. He actually twisted my words so he could say that I'm twisting his words and thats actually quite impressive.

We will see if you stated that I stated you're mafia. Yes, I say things in a speculation formula, if you'd rather have me saying "OMG LAKOKO MUST BE MAFIA BECAUSE THESE 2 VOTED HIM" that's fine by me, but I'd rather be scummy than an idiot. I didn't twist your words, I checked and you did state it, if I misread it, I apologize.

2. I am too much town to be town.
This one annoys me because of how many logical fallacies it has in it. The Mafia Wiki has a list of some common logical fallacies: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Logical_Fallacies and Without digging I have found 2 that match this statement. The first is the obvious "Too Townie" Fallacy and the second is the Hitler Built Autobahns regarding the Pattern that you have mentioned.

I am going by the obvious pattern through all mafia games on the psanon forum where the towny members are often mafia. Yes, you could see that as Hitler Built Autobahns, and the way I'm using it is indeed Too Townie, does that necessarily mean it's bad logic? no. NO it does not mean it's bad logic, because it's better logic than "he seems odd", which btw is the excuse you've been using for half of the game.

The 3rd thing that really downright DISGUSTS me is this:
"You never bring any actual quotes though, you never bring any evidence that what you say is true".

smfh I said that I cannot quote right now and will quote later and you couldnt have missed that just like I doubt that you have missed how I said that i will shoot kokojo because you talked about my post against him in your next post

I have not missed the thing where you said you couldn't quote, I just didn't believe it. I've been forced to do psanon on phone before, it's possible to quote. In fact, it's really easy, it just takes a bit longer. Your post about shooting kokojo was "I am probably going to shoot kokojo", and no I don't notice probabilities about shooting. They're not important to me, because with shooting saying you will probably shoot someone saves your ass if you shoot someone else.

Brad P. wrote:well that's the info we have so far, up until now lakoko has been one of the more contributing people, for now I'll assume she's town, though my experience tells me that often the active people are mafia on forums, so I'll get back to that later. I'm thinking we have a few options for who to shoot, there is as lakoko pointed out vicky and kokojo, and as I pointed out a possible, possible, mind you, zenkiti + kimimaro + lakoko connection, that, to me, leaves 3 options.

Vicky and kokojo are just mainly because of what lakoko already pointed out.

The third option to me would be kimimaro, lakoko contributes and zenkiti started about lakoko so he might be a town member who geniunely thinks lakoko is town, while kimimaro latched onto it to say lakoko is towny, sure it's a small risk to take in the case that I am right, though it would also mean a risk for zenkiti, in this theory that would mean a bit of a risk factor onto a town member while possibly just taking away risks for themselves.

If you are town then this is a plain disgusting play. For a mafia I can somewhat understand delibratly using something unrelated to actual game as evidence against someone because in most cases there is no other evidence but as TOWN? You know its not up to me and yet you still use it against and that is a dick move. This is not a political debate its a game of mafia for crying out loud!

It's related to the game, there was nothing else we could discuss, and it was just an option, it was something to keep in the back of your head, simply to not forget that something slightly scummy happened.

And about Vicky. The point is not giving her a gun and hoping for the best and it was never my intention. Im saying that if we vote on who gets shot instead of who will shoot we should let Vicky shoot with clear instructions on who to shoot because there is no chance in hell  that she is corrupted and by that we are taking the corruption factor out for the day. What im saying here is that if we vote on who get shot then who does the shot really doesnt matter. Th eonly difference is that Hinata has a small chance of being corrupted while Vicky doesnt.

Both have the same chance to be corrupted. invalid point. Besides, I'm not the one who brought up that part about you, that was Mary.

And I will post the Brad quotes as promised and even go one step beyond and quote every single one of his posts because im pretty sure that I will find something in every single post by Brad but not right now because I was away from home last 2 days and had liek 3 hours of sleep so im exausted rn but I had to post this because its a pending issue.

Lakoko H. wrote:And BTW Brad's determination for taking me down insufferable.
Even before I shot he made it clear that he thinks I'm maf without any reasoning and he even tried to put the 2 who voted me and I as a (insert about 5 possibles here) scum team

Lakoko H. wrote:Deadline is nearing and instead of picking shot we ended up picking shooter.

So I suggest that we start voting for who will get shot as if its a Lynch and don't use bold when voting so aj won't rage quit.

I vote Brad P.
All tho Brad did encourage discussion on day 1, the subject of discussion he tried to make us talk about is harmful for town.
If we were to have a detailed list of plans of action for every scenario, maf could easily play around it. Being predictable is a weakness for town especially in a theme like this.
That and ofc everything that I have already stated about him regarding his neutrality and lack of any direct opinion not filled with "maybe" and "possibly". Hinata talked about how kimimaro tried to stay neutral so he wouldn't step up on any toes, Brad went one step beyond and didn't give any opinions at all.
Most of his posts are just facts, making him appear helpful and contributing while not actually helping or contributing unlike Dorian B as mentioned by hinata.
He also has something against me that I am yet to understand because he never stated it directly or elaborated on why but from what I can see, he is scratching the pit of the barrel trying to find something on me like when he posted about me never saying who I will shoot (Again with no opinion involved) despite me stating on my next (or second next) post that I suspect kokojo and will probably shoot him.
I'm also not fond of how he keeps mentioning how clueless he is or how unsure he is and in his final day 1 post he both went against me and agreed with me in the most insecure way possible meaning no matter who what the results of the shooting are, nothing can be used against him

Zack E. wrote:Alright, going back it seems that I'm being voted for either a gut feeling, inactivity, or the fact that I asked for activity early on and didnt provide any points to discuss.  According to Brad, it's because I haven't reacted to all the points brought up in the last few days.  I remember seeing something about a Hinata/Brad scumteam, this could make some sense because they have been agreeing with each other but besides that there's really nothing supporting it.  As for Vicky or Hinata getting the gun, I explained my opinion when I voted for Hinata.  My opinion on who to shoot here still holds true because we're voting to shoot either one of two inactives or myself.  The idea of Lakoko being scum is very interesting however and multiple people have made some interesting points.  I can't think of any other discussion points off the top of my head but Ill look through the last 4-5 pages later and see if I missed anything.

Vicky T. wrote:
Am I the only one who sees a team with hinata and brad, they just seem to be agreeing with everything they both say and its rather odd

Brad P. wrote:simple answer to vicky, no I don't see a team as it would be too obvious, everything I've been doing so far has been either obvious town move or sneaky mafia move. Why would I suddenly make an obvious mafia move? hypothetically speaking.

Brad P. wrote:
So my subject of discussion is harmful for town? I'm trying to set us into a pattern that'll make us predictable? But really, am I the one who thought it was a good idea to do the scummy shoots scummier thing? No, you had the idea, I was against it. I didn't want us falling into a pattern. You want opinions? Well here you go, you've got opinions that you can actually understand, rather than my other opinions that you see as facts. If I really didn't want to step on your toes, don't you think I'd have done it a little differently? I have experience with mafia games, staying neutral never works. It's the perfect way to step on people's toes, and my experience is that I have a tendency to step on the mafia's toes, the smart ones just defend themselves and ignore it. How many times have I mentioned how clueless I am? How many times have I mentioned how unsure I am? Because iirc I mentioned it with the scumteam thing, and for the rest maybe once for a few other things. But what was there to be sure about? It was day 1, we were the only ones really trying to do anything, and now we've turned against eachother.