Game 12: Vengeful Mafia Mafia

Kezoki Q. wrote:Natchi, you never pointed out why I was scum, you seem to be using  PoE to get your scum team, which I think is a bad idea at LYLO. Plus, Wakana does bring up a point, you completely switched your views on Brendan. I still believe you are town, but you are being led to change your opinions really fast.
As for myself, I have already explained multiple times why I did not lynch agatha, and it turned out really well for town and she became active. And seeing your comments Natchi, this seems like the only reason you're accusing me; you bring it up in every scumteam combination. If we were mafia partners, do you really think I'd lynch her twice and switch just before the deadline twice (once because you asked me to)? It was just pure coincidence.
Unrelated, someone did ask what bussing meant earlier, legit question, or trying to divert attention and seem like a new guy?

Agatha A. wrote:
1) So, natchi, I am kind of confused right now because I seriously got 44 messages and they're all kind of confusing. So could you please put down what makes you believe I'm scum again? I can't really defend myself if I don't know what I'm defending myself from now can I?
Creating fallbacks/explanations for yourself if you make any mistakes "Oh, my gut feeling tells me this" "I'm someone who contributes a lot more as mafia" (not exact wording) and also your interactions with other people that i've put you in scumteams with make me think you're mafia. Given, i've changed my opinion before, and I would be willing to change my opinion again if I get a good reason to do so.
2) You're kinda interesting Natchi. First you put yourself in a possible scumteam, then you "clear" 2 people and don't put those + yourself in the scumteams, then you put those "clear" people in scumteams again. ah... yup, I totally understand. So what's up with that? And what makes Brendan so clear? We can't rely on those possible scumteams. We just can't. How do you expect me to rely on those while my own mafia strategy would be just forgetting who your mafia partners are until the night comes? I just can't rely on it. Think about it, throughout this game there have been a few recurring topics. Readlists, bussing and later scumteams. Bussing and scumteams are 2 things that are related to interacting with other mafia if you are mafia, now tell me, if you are mafia, would you do bussing if people are looking for bussing as much as you are? would you show anything of a scumteam if people are looking for scumteams as much as you are? Though if you really want to know scumteams, right now I'm thinking of the scumteam Natchi + Brendan + Mizuho, you've been talking about bussing this much... is it maybe a distraction so we don't think about a scumteam of you 3, who seem to be so sure about each other being town? Though as I just said, we can't rely on scumteams, it's about single people acting scummy first, then next it's about possible scumteams that come out of this. We can't base our beliefs of who is scum on the scumteams we made up. Also, lovely how you put the scumteams without me in it as illogical, you're really sure I'm mafia aren't you? hahaha... could it be a plan? Either way, Brendan seems to be very eagered to agree with you.
After you do shitloads of analysis, your opinion changes (generally). I think Brendan is clear because there is really no viable scumteam that would make sense for him. Also, why wouldn't you do bussing? It's a great strategy and people haven't really looked at it a lot until this late in the game. Regarding scumteams, scum generally makes small mistakes that can tip town off on what the scumteams are. Ok, you've brought up a scumteam of me+Brendan+Mizuho, now please explain why that would make sense. Just because all of us are focusing on one topic would not mean that we're a scumteam; it could just mean that we're all looking at the same topic to identify scum. If we don't base our beliefs of who is scum based on scumteams we've observed to be viable, what do you suggest we base it off of? I am also very sure that you're mafia due to what i've brought up before, but also because I don't see very many other viable scumteams that don't include you in it. Brendan is probably very eager to agree with me because he thinks i'm town; why wouldn't you agree with my townread?

4) In one of your posts you said that Kezoki might have been trying to cut of dead weight first by lynching me, but then he changed his opinion. Though isn't this pretty much the same as what you're doing with Brendan? Only then you even put Brendan as clear, something Kezoki never did to me. Good job :] And about this too, Mizuho said that with my theory he would be 100% clear, which I explained to not be as simple later (which mizuho seems to have ignored), and now you seem to see brendan as 100% town... And of course you also see Mizuho as 100% town. yup, you're amazing at this. Also, it's a bit strange... so far there haven't really been many situations where A thought B was town and B thought A was town, and especially not where they seemed so sure as you 2. Brendan and Natchi... yeah you seem very sure of each other, strange isn't it? And then there's also that thing where both of you seem to be REALLY sure I'm mafia...

Again, you're suggesting a Mizuho+Brendan+me scumteam; coincidental that you're taking the three people I haven't put as scum and would likely vote with me in a scumteam so that you can try and rally the other three (two of whom are likely mafia) with you, huh? Kezoki didn't put you as clear because he didn't have the same reasoning that caused me to clear Brendan. I also don't remember what I first put Brendan as, though i'll look for that after this. I also think there have been quite a few situations where "A thought B was town and B thought A was town," see me and Kezoki at the beginning and middle of the game + Mizuho and essentially all of her townreads throughout the game. Can you quote the post where you further explained your point (the one Mizuho referred to) again? I think I missed it.

5) Let me ask you something, who would be more concerned about what the view on you will be after you post something? Mafia or town? I'd say mafia, does it seem like I've been concerned about what the view on me was while making my posts? With all of those things you could find in them that I didn't properly explain, thus making me look scummy, what seems more logical if you ONLY look at this? I'd say town, though of course you can never ignore scummy behaviour, so if you're looking at everything you can come up to a different conclusion, as you did.

So you literally just made an argument that defends yourself and that I think is false. At this stage in the game, both mafia and town should care about what others think of them because if they're scummy, they'll be lynched and lose town the game.

6) Once again, disappointed means you'd rather have something else, doesn't mean you're not happy with what you have. LEARN TO READ. I was disappointed but with all that's happened I'm actually happy with the role I have, and wouldn't want it to be anything different.

Yes, disappointed means you would prefer the other outcome more, which is often but not necessarily correlated with not liking what you have. It DOES mean that you would have liked the other outcome more, and that you would prefer it to be different. At this point, we literally just have different definitions about "disappointment" and we can't resolve this argument, so there's no point in continuing it.

9) Always remember, you might be smart, but that doesn't mean your enemies aren't. Anything we say could be used by the mafia to manipulate us, if we talk about bussing, they're not going to bus, if we talk about scumteams, they're not going to show their teams, if we talk about moods, they're going to act to the least noticable one. If we're talking about town characteristics, they'll use that.

They'll do their best, but sometimes they make mistakes. Although after talking about something heavily, it's probably not a good idea to put emphasis on it to determine scum.

10) didn't we agree that PoE was a bad idea Natchi? though you seem to be very happy with your PoE tactic, seeing as it put you with a scumteam of 3, though it made use of a useless tactic that can be abused by scum. Scumteams. I have explained this above.

Yes, but I would be opposed to a Kezoki lynch solely because I have very little valid evidence against lynching him. I'm using possible scumteams to better identify scum, but that doesn't mean I would be equally ok with lynching each member.

11) Natchi, you bring in wakana being town to you because she went full force against you, but uhh... wouldn't mafia want to get rid of the person who is posting such walls of text like you did? Someone who isn't the first suspect could certainly do it without getting too much trouble. Sometimes you have to take risks, if it's sure to get you a bit more scummy but the reward for it if it works is amazing, both town and mafia will be sure to do it.

Certainly so, but they'd do that by nightkilling me, not opposing me publicly. A lot of people think Wakana is scum (basically the same amount of people who think Warden/Kezoki is scum). Wakana is just behaving very pro-town at this point and just plain does not seem scummy.

12) Now isn't that interesting Natchi, I'd say the pressure is more on me than on you and brendan now is it? I mean, you don't have 2 people going for your head who are both convinced you need to die. Just 1 person questioning you, something that could make you look more towny, though it could also lead to a less towny look, but you don't need to worry about that right? seeing as in the case you're town there's not really a problem as long as you find the mafia and if you're mafia you've got 2 people to back you up... right? So what's making you pressured?

I don't know if i'm pressured, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we're in LyLo and it is essentially crunch time for town; everybody at this point should be posting actively, since this is the game-deciding moment. You may also be wondering where the pressure is coming from: you have Wakana and you pressuring me, and me and Brendan(although I don't really see anything he's doing to pressure you other than saying "I support Natchi's arguments" etc.) pressuring you.

13) connections between 2 people are helpful actually, if 2 of them insisted on a small connection to benefit eachother and the third insisted to not do it, you could end up with 2 doing their plan and 1 being there as if they're solo. Though this occurs less than 3 scum working together or no scum working together during the day, so it's less useful than scumteams. And you know what I think about that.

Yes, i'm not saying that it's useless completely(I may have not been clear enough), but i'm saying it's not a good method of helping us find the final three scum since the two could just be a pair of townies or even 1 mafia, 1 townie that agrees with each other while a scumteam of three could help us figure out who all the scum are.

That turned out to be a pretty big post but yeah... I hope I didn't miss anything. Either way, I hope you kinda understand what I mean by being serious now. I also hope I don't get lynched before I have the chance to reply to the replies to this.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Warden H. wrote:Gonna go sleep now, my last thoughts are that Natchi is town. I ISO'd her and the way she's playing (crossing examining posts bit by bit) reminds me of my old town play.

Is there a reason why you discontinued your old town play? I mean it sounds pretty good so why did you stop?

Agatha A. wrote:that's something that can't be judged very easily, of course there are people who are actually just pro town when they're town, though there are also people who play really well as mafia. It's something about being TOO perfect, though that is very hard to judge, so that's why I'm not really sure on this.

Agatha A. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:that's something that can't be judged very easily, of course there are people who are actually just pro town when they're town, though there are also people who play really well as mafia. It's something about being TOO perfect, though that is very hard to judge, so that's why I'm not really sure on this.

This is for the thing where I explained further in response to natchi asking about it. (how does multi-quoting work? X_X)

Mizuho N. wrote:Dammit Natchi you ninjad me!

Natchi F. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
1) So, natchi, I am kind of confused right now because I seriously got 44 messages and they're all kind of confusing. So could you please put down what makes you believe I'm scum again? I can't really defend myself if I don't know what I'm defending myself from now can I?
Creating fallbacks/explanations for yourself if you make any mistakes "Oh, my gut feeling tells me this" "I'm someone who contributes a lot more as mafia" (not exact wording) and also your interactions with other people that i've put you in scumteams with make me think you're mafia. Given, i've changed my opinion before, and I would be willing to change my opinion again if I get a good reason to do so.
The thing with gut feeling was because before I was actually sort of using this as a test game, and my apoligies for that, my gut feeling doesn't seem to work very well. The thing with scumteams, (and here I go again, I know) I am not one to interact with scum partners, though I would like to hear in what way I interacted with these so said scum partners.
2) You're kinda interesting Natchi. First you put yourself in a possible scumteam, then you "clear" 2 people and don't put those + yourself in the scumteams, then you put those "clear" people in scumteams again. ah... yup, I totally understand. So what's up with that? And what makes Brendan so clear? We can't rely on those possible scumteams. We just can't. How do you expect me to rely on those while my own mafia strategy would be just forgetting who your mafia partners are until the night comes? I just can't rely on it. Think about it, throughout this game there have been a few recurring topics. Readlists, bussing and later scumteams. Bussing and scumteams are 2 things that are related to interacting with other mafia if you are mafia, now tell me, if you are mafia, would you do bussing if people are looking for bussing as much as you are? would you show anything of a scumteam if people are looking for scumteams as much as you are? Though if you really want to know scumteams, right now I'm thinking of the scumteam Natchi + Brendan + Mizuho, you've been talking about bussing this much... is it maybe a distraction so we don't think about a scumteam of you 3, who seem to be so sure about each other being town? Though as I just said, we can't rely on scumteams, it's about single people acting scummy first, then next it's about possible scumteams that come out of this. We can't base our beliefs of who is scum on the scumteams we made up. Also, lovely how you put the scumteams without me in it as illogical, you're really sure I'm mafia aren't you? hahaha... could it be a plan? Either way, Brendan seems to be very eagered to agree with you.
After you do shitloads of analysis, your opinion changes (generally). I think Brendan is clear because there is really no viable scumteam that would make sense for him. Also, why wouldn't you do bussing? It's a great strategy and people haven't really looked at it a lot until this late in the game. Regarding scumteams, scum generally makes small mistakes that can tip town off on what the scumteams are. Ok, you've brought up a scumteam of me+Brendan+Mizuho, now please explain why that would make sense. Just because all of us are focusing on one topic would not mean that we're a scumteam; it could just mean that we're all looking at the same topic to identify scum. If we don't base our beliefs of who is scum based on scumteams we've observed to be viable, what do you suggest we base it off of? I am also very sure that you're mafia due to what i've brought up before, but also because I don't see very many other viable scumteams that don't include you in it. Brendan is probably very eager to agree with me because he thinks i'm town; why wouldn't you agree with my townread?

You and Mizuho are both pretty towny while Brendan was close to getting lynched, that is, before I directed the attention to nicolai, so there's a scumteam with brendan in it that would work I guess? anyways, at that moment you 2 (from my memory) were agreeing on the lynches, though later at least you changed your opinion, which was as you explained from lots of analysis, though it's still something to keep in mind.

4) In one of your posts you said that Kezoki might have been trying to cut of dead weight first by lynching me, but then he changed his opinion. Though isn't this pretty much the same as what you're doing with Brendan? Only then you even put Brendan as clear, something Kezoki never did to me. Good job :] And about this too, Mizuho said that with my theory he would be 100% clear, which I explained to not be as simple later (which mizuho seems to have ignored), and now you seem to see brendan as 100% town... And of course you also see Mizuho as 100% town. yup, you're amazing at this. Also, it's a bit strange... so far there haven't really been many situations where A thought B was town and B thought A was town, and especially not where they seemed so sure as you 2. Brendan and Natchi... yeah you seem very sure of each other, strange isn't it? And then there's also that thing where both of you seem to be REALLY sure I'm mafia...

Again, you're suggesting a Mizuho+Brendan+me scumteam; coincidental that you're taking the three people I haven't put as scum and would likely vote with me in a scumteam so that you can try and rally the other three (two of whom are likely mafia) with you, huh? Kezoki didn't put you as clear because he didn't have the same reasoning that caused me to clear Brendan. I also don't remember what I first put Brendan as, though i'll look for that after this. I also think there have been quite a few situations where "A thought B was town and B thought A was town," see me and Kezoki at the beginning and middle of the game + Mizuho and essentially all of her townreads throughout the game. Can you quote the post where you further explained your point (the one Mizuho referred to) again? I think I missed it.

While there have been situations like that, how many were there actually where they were both having pretty much the same opinion? How many of them said they were pretty sure about the other being town? If this is wrong I apologize for not looking into this enough. The thing with the scumteam was just the first thing that came to mind, though it has some logical points in it, it is also lacking in the way that you, Natchi, seem like town. My first reaction was one in haste, one where I hadn't had much time to think yet. And that is my own fault.

5) Let me ask you something, who would be more concerned about what the view on you will be after you post something? Mafia or town? I'd say mafia, does it seem like I've been concerned about what the view on me was while making my posts? With all of those things you could find in them that I didn't properly explain, thus making me look scummy, what seems more logical if you ONLY look at this? I'd say town, though of course you can never ignore scummy behaviour, so if you're looking at everything you can come up to a different conclusion, as you did.

So you literally just made an argument that defends yourself and that I think is false. At this stage in the game, both mafia and town should care about what others think of them because if they're scummy, they'll be lynched and lose town the game.

True, though up until now that wasn't as necessary, though I agree that it is kind of important now, though never forget, you should still say your opinion the way it is, if you don't and it was right afterwards, I would get mad at myself for not saying it. And I did say my opinions the way they were.

11) Natchi, you bring in wakana being town to you because she went full force against you, but uhh... wouldn't mafia want to get rid of the person who is posting such walls of text like you did? Someone who isn't the first suspect could certainly do it without getting too much trouble. Sometimes you have to take risks, if it's sure to get you a bit more scummy but the reward for it if it works is amazing, both town and mafia will be sure to do it.

Certainly so, but they'd do that by nightkilling me, not opposing me publicly. A lot of people think Wakana is scum (basically the same amount of people who think Warden/Kezoki is scum). Wakana is just behaving very pro-town at this point and just plain does not seem scummy.

While the night-killing is a good point, I also think that it's kinda strange, say they would have a night kill, would it go to you or Mizuho? Though seeing as with a town getting lynched this game ends, I guess that's a valid point.

12) Now isn't that interesting Natchi, I'd say the pressure is more on me than on you and brendan now is it? I mean, you don't have 2 people going for your head who are both convinced you need to die. Just 1 person questioning you, something that could make you look more towny, though it could also lead to a less towny look, but you don't need to worry about that right? seeing as in the case you're town there's not really a problem as long as you find the mafia and if you're mafia you've got 2 people to back you up... right? So what's making you pressured?

I don't know if i'm pressured, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we're in LyLo and it is essentially crunch time for town; everybody at this point should be posting actively, since this is the game-deciding moment. You may also be wondering where the pressure is coming from: you have Wakana and you pressuring me, and me and Brendan(although I don't really see anything he's doing to pressure you other than saying "I support Natchi's arguments" etc.) pressuring you.

When you said you were feeling pressured it was actually only Wakana, while meanwhile the pressure from both you and Brendan has been on me.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.
While that is what I'm doing, as I said before I have kind of been using this as a game to test a few things earlier, so I wont be doing that as much anymore from NOW on, seeing as it clearly doesn't really work, and as I explained in response to mizuho, being scummy on purpose would be idiotic. I hope you believe me when I say I'm not an idiot.

Warden H. wrote: I really feel Mizuno is town now. At first her posts are very easy to imitate as scum, but after thinking about her posts I find it hard to see it coming from mafia.

Brendan T. wrote:

Warden H. wrote: I really feel Mizuno is town now. At first her posts are very easy to imitate as scum, but after thinking about her posts I find it hard to see it coming from mafia.

Isn't this exactly why Wakana was suspecting me and Natchi?  We both went and made complete 180s on our reads (with valid reason of course), so wouldn't a Mizuho/Warden scum team be a possibility? I don't think Mizuho has put her thoughts on Warden recently, and it does seem interesting that this switch came right after all this talk about bussing.

Agatha A. wrote:
1) So, natchi, I am kind of confused right now because I seriously got 44 messages and they're all kind of confusing. So could you please put down what makes you believe I'm scum again? I can't really defend myself if I don't know what I'm defending myself from now can I?
Creating fallbacks/explanations for yourself if you make any mistakes "Oh, my gut feeling tells me this" "I'm someone who contributes a lot more as mafia" (not exact wording) and also your interactions with other people that i've put you in scumteams with make me think you're mafia. Given, i've changed my opinion before, and I would be willing to change my opinion again if I get a good reason to do so.
The thing with gut feeling was because before I was actually sort of using this as a test game, and my apoligies for that, my gut feeling doesn't seem to work very well. The thing with scumteams, (and here I go again, I know) I am not one to interact with scum partners, though I would like to hear in what way I interacted with these so said scum partners.

Agatha A. wrote:
2) You're kinda interesting Natchi. First you put yourself in a possible scumteam, then you "clear" 2 people and don't put those + yourself in the scumteams, then you put those "clear" people in scumteams again. ah... yup, I totally understand. So what's up with that? And what makes Brendan so clear? We can't rely on those possible scumteams. We just can't. How do you expect me to rely on those while my own mafia strategy would be just forgetting who your mafia partners are until the night comes? I just can't rely on it. Think about it, throughout this game there have been a few recurring topics. Readlists, bussing and later scumteams. Bussing and scumteams are 2 things that are related to interacting with other mafia if you are mafia, now tell me, if you are mafia, would you do bussing if people are looking for bussing as much as you are? would you show anything of a scumteam if people are looking for scumteams as much as you are? Though if you really want to know scumteams, right now I'm thinking of the scumteam Natchi + Brendan + Mizuho, you've been talking about bussing this much... is it maybe a distraction so we don't think about a scumteam of you 3, who seem to be so sure about each other being town? Though as I just said, we can't rely on scumteams, it's about single people acting scummy first, then next it's about possible scumteams that come out of this. We can't base our beliefs of who is scum on the scumteams we made up. Also, lovely how you put the scumteams without me in it as illogical, you're really sure I'm mafia aren't you? hahaha... could it be a plan? Either way, Brendan seems to be very eagered to agree with you.
After you do shitloads of analysis, your opinion changes (generally). I think Brendan is clear because there is really no viable scumteam that would make sense for him. Also, why wouldn't you do bussing? It's a great strategy and people haven't really looked at it a lot until this late in the game. Regarding scumteams, scum generally makes small mistakes that can tip town off on what the scumteams are. Ok, you've brought up a scumteam of me+Brendan+Mizuho, now please explain why that would make sense. Just because all of us are focusing on one topic would not mean that we're a scumteam; it could just mean that we're all looking at the same topic to identify scum. If we don't base our beliefs of who is scum based on scumteams we've observed to be viable, what do you suggest we base it off of? I am also very sure that you're mafia due to what i've brought up before, but also because I don't see very many other viable scumteams that don't include you in it. Brendan is probably very eager to agree with me because he thinks i'm town; why wouldn't you agree with my townread?

You and Mizuho are both pretty towny while Brendan was close to getting lynched, that is, before I directed the attention to nicolai, so there's a scumteam with brendan in it that would work I guess? anyways, at that moment you 2 (from my memory) were agreeing on the lynches, though later at least you changed your opinion, which was as you explained from lots of analysis, though it's still something to keep in mind.

Agatha A. wrote:
3) In one of your posts you said that Kezoki might have been trying to cut of dead weight first by lynching me, but then he changed his opinion. Though isn't this pretty much the same as what you're doing with Brendan? Only then you even put Brendan as clear, something Kezoki never did to me. Good job :] And about this too, Mizuho said that with my theory he would be 100% clear, which I explained to not be as simple later (which mizuho seems to have ignored), and now you seem to see brendan as 100% town... And of course you also see Mizuho as 100% town. yup, you're amazing at this. Also, it's a bit strange... so far there haven't really been many situations where A thought B was town and B thought A was town, and especially not where they seemed so sure as you 2. Brendan and Natchi... yeah you seem very sure of each other, strange isn't it? And then there's also that thing where both of you seem to be REALLY sure I'm mafia...
Again, you're suggesting a Mizuho+Brendan+me scumteam; coincidental that you're taking the three people I haven't put as scum and would likely vote with me in a scumteam so that you can try and rally the other three (two of whom are likely mafia) with you, huh? Kezoki didn't put you as clear because he didn't have the same reasoning that caused me to clear Brendan. I also don't remember what I first put Brendan as, though i'll look for that after this. I also think there have been quite a few situations where "A thought B was town and B thought A was town," see me and Kezoki at the beginning and middle of the game + Mizuho and essentially all of her townreads throughout the game. Can you quote the post where you further explained your point (the one Mizuho referred to) again? I think I missed it.
While there have been situations like that, how many were there actually where they were both having pretty much the same opinion? How many of them said they were pretty sure about the other being town? If this is wrong I apologize for not looking into this enough. The thing with the scumteam was just the first thing that came to mind, though it has some logical points in it, it is also lacking in the way that you, Natchi, seem like town. My first reaction was one in haste, one where I hadn't had much time to think yet. And that is my own fault.

Agatha A. wrote:
4) Let me ask you something, who would be more concerned about what the view on you will be after you post something? Mafia or town? I'd say mafia, does it seem like I've been concerned about what the view on me was while making my posts? With all of those things you could find in them that I didn't properly explain, thus making me look scummy, what seems more logical if you ONLY look at this? I'd say town, though of course you can never ignore scummy behaviour, so if you're looking at everything you can come up to a different conclusion, as you did.

So you literally just made an argument that defends yourself and that I think is false. At this stage in the game, both mafia and town should care about what others think of them because if they're scummy, they'll be lynched and lose town the game.

True, though up until now that wasn't as necessary, though I agree that it is kind of important now, though never forget, you should still say your opinion the way it is, if you don't and it was right afterwards, I would get mad at myself for not saying it. And I did say my opinions the way they were.

Agatha A. wrote:
5) Natchi, you bring in wakana being town to you because she went full force against you, but uhh... wouldn't mafia want to get rid of the person who is posting such walls of text like you did? Someone who isn't the first suspect could certainly do it without getting too much trouble. Sometimes you have to take risks, if it's sure to get you a bit more scummy but the reward for it if it works is amazing, both town and mafia will be sure to do it.

Certainly so, but they'd do that by nightkilling me, not opposing me publicly. A lot of people think Wakana is scum (basically the same amount of people who think Warden/Kezoki is scum). Wakana is just behaving very pro-town at this point and just plain does not seem scummy.

While the night-killing is a good point, I also think that it's kinda strange, say they would have a night kill, would it go to you or Mizuho? Though seeing as with a town getting lynched this game ends, I guess that's a valid point.

Agatha A. wrote:
6) Now isn't that interesting Natchi, I'd say the pressure is more on me than on you and brendan now is it? I mean, you don't have 2 people going for your head who are both convinced you need to die. Just 1 person questioning you, something that could make you look more towny, though it could also lead to a less towny look, but you don't need to worry about that right? seeing as in the case you're town there's not really a problem as long as you find the mafia and if you're mafia you've got 2 people to back you up... right? So what's making you pressured?

I don't know if i'm pressured, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we're in LyLo and it is essentially crunch time for town; everybody at this point should be posting actively, since this is the game-deciding moment. You may also be wondering where the pressure is coming from: you have Wakana and you pressuring me, and me and Brendan(although I don't really see anything he's doing to pressure you other than saying "I support Natchi's arguments" etc.) pressuring you.

When you said you were feeling pressured it was actually only Wakana, while meanwhile the pressure from both you and Brendan has been on me.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.
While that is what I'm doing, as I said before I have kind of been using this as a game to test a few things earlier, so I wont be doing that as much anymore from NOW on, seeing as it clearly doesn't really work, and as I explained in response to mizuho, being scummy on purpose would be idiotic. I hope you believe me when I say I'm not an idiot.

Agatha A. wrote:anyways, the question towards Natchi is to explain how I interacted with those "scum partners"

Natchi F. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
2) You're kinda interesting Natchi. First you put yourself in a possible scumteam, then you "clear" 2 people and don't put those + yourself in the scumteams, then you put those "clear" people in scumteams again. ah... yup, I totally understand. So what's up with that? And what makes Brendan so clear? We can't rely on those possible scumteams. We just can't. How do you expect me to rely on those while my own mafia strategy would be just forgetting who your mafia partners are until the night comes? I just can't rely on it. Think about it, throughout this game there have been a few recurring topics. Readlists, bussing and later scumteams. Bussing and scumteams are 2 things that are related to interacting with other mafia if you are mafia, now tell me, if you are mafia, would you do bussing if people are looking for bussing as much as you are? would you show anything of a scumteam if people are looking for scumteams as much as you are? Though if you really want to know scumteams, right now I'm thinking of the scumteam Natchi + Brendan + Mizuho, you've been talking about bussing this much... is it maybe a distraction so we don't think about a scumteam of you 3, who seem to be so sure about each other being town? Though as I just said, we can't rely on scumteams, it's about single people acting scummy first, then next it's about possible scumteams that come out of this. We can't base our beliefs of who is scum on the scumteams we made up. Also, lovely how you put the scumteams without me in it as illogical, you're really sure I'm mafia aren't you? hahaha... could it be a plan? Either way, Brendan seems to be very eagered to agree with you.
After you do shitloads of analysis, your opinion changes (generally). I think Brendan is clear because there is really no viable scumteam that would make sense for him. Also, why wouldn't you do bussing? It's a great strategy and people haven't really looked at it a lot until this late in the game. Regarding scumteams, scum generally makes small mistakes that can tip town off on what the scumteams are. Ok, you've brought up a scumteam of me+Brendan+Mizuho, now please explain why that would make sense. Just because all of us are focusing on one topic would not mean that we're a scumteam; it could just mean that we're all looking at the same topic to identify scum. If we don't base our beliefs of who is scum based on scumteams we've observed to be viable, what do you suggest we base it off of? I am also very sure that you're mafia due to what i've brought up before, but also because I don't see very many other viable scumteams that don't include you in it. Brendan is probably very eager to agree with me because he thinks i'm town; why wouldn't you agree with my townread?

You and Mizuho are both pretty towny while Brendan was close to getting lynched, that is, before I directed the attention to nicolai, so there's a scumteam with brendan in it that would work I guess? anyways, at that moment you 2 (from my memory) were agreeing on the lynches, though later at least you changed your opinion, which was as you explained from lots of analysis, though it's still something to keep in mind.

Which two, me and Mizuho or me and Brendan?

The idea was me, Brendan and someone who didn't lynch brendan but did lynch nicolai, seeing as brendan was going to get lynched when I dragged the attention away from him, this was just a small point to say that a scumteam with brendan in it isn't impossible.

Agatha A. wrote:
6) Now isn't that interesting Natchi, I'd say the pressure is more on me than on you and brendan now is it? I mean, you don't have 2 people going for your head who are both convinced you need to die. Just 1 person questioning you, something that could make you look more towny, though it could also lead to a less towny look, but you don't need to worry about that right? seeing as in the case you're town there's not really a problem as long as you find the mafia and if you're mafia you've got 2 people to back you up... right? So what's making you pressured?

I don't know if i'm pressured, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we're in LyLo and it is essentially crunch time for town; everybody at this point should be posting actively, since this is the game-deciding moment. You may also be wondering where the pressure is coming from: you have Wakana and you pressuring me, and me and Brendan(although I don't really see anything he's doing to pressure you other than saying "I support Natchi's arguments" etc.) pressuring you.

When you said you were feeling pressured it was actually only Wakana, while meanwhile the pressure from both you and Brendan has been on me.

Again, I wouldn't really call what Brendan's doing as pressure, he really hasn't brought anything new to the conversation : /
You also just said you see me as town, but this makes it sound like you see me as scum. Which is it?

At the moment I made this giant post I was more thinking about the strange things that happened in those 44 posts, not about general behaviour, and while there were some strange things in those 44 posts I had to read through all of a sudden, your overal behaviour, something I hadn't thought about, seems like that of a town player. Think about it, how much does it happen that a mafia player says to be 99% sure about someone even though that player isn't really under attack or anything at that moment? Though a mafia would possibly follow it when someone says to be sure about it, of course it wouldn't be very smart to go in with all 3 until all 3 of you are on and the villy has actually lynched, just one of them to try and convince the rest of the town. All 3 would be a bit strange wouldn't it? suddely 4 people who all sort of thought a person was neutral or whatever earlier suddenly being sure that the player is mafia... that wouldn't work.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.
While that is what I'm doing, as I said before I have kind of been using this as a game to test a few things earlier, so I wont be doing that as much anymore from NOW on, seeing as it clearly doesn't really work, and as I explained in response to mizuho, being scummy on purpose would be idiotic. I hope you believe me when I say I'm not an idiot.

I think Mizuho may have been saying that you were trying to create crutches for yourself to fall back on if you seem scummy. I still don't exactly know what you mean by this being a "test game." Why would you test things in a game like this!?

When else am I going to test forums mafia tactics? Seeing as it doesn't work, I now know that I shouldn't do that, it doesn't really help out town to get lynched if you're a villager... though I seem to be pretty bad at not being scummy lately... Anyways, as I said, there aren't really much ways to test a tactic for forums mafia, and seeing as I don't really have experience with forums mafia I'll need some sort of tactic that works rather than what I've been doing. As you have said, being scummy doesn't help out town.

Agatha A. wrote:anyways, the question towards Natchi is to explain how I interacted with those "scum partners"

Ok so my main suspicion is Kezoki+you+Warden.
Warden slowly changed your position on his readlist from mafia to town, while Kezoki brought you up to neutral (if I remember correctly). I've covered why you +Kezoki would make sense, so i'll just talk about you+Warden. Essentially, while Warden has been relatively inactive, he only had you as scum when a majority of people wanted to lynch you, and seemed like he switched you up to town as soon as he could. You have both townread each other and really never been aggressive/pushy towards each other. I don't think you can be a scumteam with me, Brendan, or Mizuho at this point. I believe I also covered why you+Wakana would make sense. (for a Wakana+you+Warden scumteam  

Kezoki Q. wrote:Actually yes, like Warden said LYLO will draw out the mafia and make them more likely to participate. This is why Warden and Mizuho seem more like town right now, and Brendan and Agatha seem more like mafia.

Kezoki Q. wrote:Actually yes, like Warden said LYLO will draw out the mafia and make them more likely to participate. This is why Warden and Mizuho seem more like town right now, and Brendan and Agatha seem more like mafia.