Game 12: Vengeful Mafia Mafia

Agatha A. wrote:I'm wondering, what were your motives? Other than the one Natchi brought up recently, people seemed to just keep clinging onto the argument that I wasn't active at first, but I doubt that was your motive, so what WAS it?

I dont think I ever brought up your inactivity, and if I did it was at least 2 days ago. What I have against you is that the points you are trying to make dont make sense to me and you change your opinion on people (or at least it seems that way) so many times that I don't know what you think of them. Your early inactivity doesn't factor into my thought process at all.

Agatha A. wrote:It's actually not really a war between Natchi and me, it's actually turned into Natchi attacking me and me just well... attacking no one, because I'm sort of clueless as to who would be mafia. Though either way I'd rather not die and make town lose like that, and we don't have a lot of time left.

From what I've seen there is indeed a possible lynch on me, also one on Brendan, but actually the mafia can also be someone else... In fact, stating 2 lynch options is kind of scummy Mizuho, especially if you aren't one of them, because if you're the mafia you would love to direct attention to 2 people you know being villy, or at least I'd guess you would.

1.) No, its clearly a war, you are both attacking each other in a heated manner, especially at the start.

2.) I didnt say that you had to lynch from those 2 options. I am saying those are probably, from what we have discussed, are the most probable lynches.

Cmon guys we need some activity, just over a day till deadline and we've barely gotten anywhere

Yo, aj, extension please?
I probably won't be able to respond to anything today, i'll try to if I can later today.

We really do need more time to discuss, so please extend the deadline (I know you've been willing to do it if people have agreed on it before).

Sorry, no extension, I gave you guys 5 whole days.

Well... shit.

Warden H. wrote:^ not going to lie, the fact that town is at lylo kind makes me pretty unmotivated

I...why?

Kezoki Q. wrote:Actually yes, like Warden said LYLO will draw out the mafia and make them more likely to participate. This is why Warden and Mizuho seem more like town right now, and Brendan and Agatha seem more like mafia.

I honestly don't understand the logic behind this. Why the hell would town not begin posting more at LyLo, given it's their last chance? Also, why didn't you include me in this list?
(Here, we've got some further evidence for Kezoki+Warden).

Agatha A. wrote:

Natchi F. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
2) You're kinda interesting Natchi. First you put yourself in a possible scumteam, then you "clear" 2 people and don't put those + yourself in the scumteams, then you put those "clear" people in scumteams again. ah... yup, I totally understand. So what's up with that? And what makes Brendan so clear? We can't rely on those possible scumteams. We just can't. How do you expect me to rely on those while my own mafia strategy would be just forgetting who your mafia partners are until the night comes? I just can't rely on it. Think about it, throughout this game there have been a few recurring topics. Readlists, bussing and later scumteams. Bussing and scumteams are 2 things that are related to interacting with other mafia if you are mafia, now tell me, if you are mafia, would you do bussing if people are looking for bussing as much as you are? would you show anything of a scumteam if people are looking for scumteams as much as you are? Though if you really want to know scumteams, right now I'm thinking of the scumteam Natchi + Brendan + Mizuho, you've been talking about bussing this much... is it maybe a distraction so we don't think about a scumteam of you 3, who seem to be so sure about each other being town? Though as I just said, we can't rely on scumteams, it's about single people acting scummy first, then next it's about possible scumteams that come out of this. We can't base our beliefs of who is scum on the scumteams we made up. Also, lovely how you put the scumteams without me in it as illogical, you're really sure I'm mafia aren't you? hahaha... could it be a plan? Either way, Brendan seems to be very eagered to agree with you.
After you do shitloads of analysis, your opinion changes (generally). I think Brendan is clear because there is really no viable scumteam that would make sense for him. Also, why wouldn't you do bussing? It's a great strategy and people haven't really looked at it a lot until this late in the game. Regarding scumteams, scum generally makes small mistakes that can tip town off on what the scumteams are. Ok, you've brought up a scumteam of me+Brendan+Mizuho, now please explain why that would make sense. Just because all of us are focusing on one topic would not mean that we're a scumteam; it could just mean that we're all looking at the same topic to identify scum. If we don't base our beliefs of who is scum based on scumteams we've observed to be viable, what do you suggest we base it off of? I am also very sure that you're mafia due to what i've brought up before, but also because I don't see very many other viable scumteams that don't include you in it. Brendan is probably very eager to agree with me because he thinks i'm town; why wouldn't you agree with my townread?

You and Mizuho are both pretty towny while Brendan was close to getting lynched, that is, before I directed the attention to nicolai, so there's a scumteam with brendan in it that would work I guess? anyways, at that moment you 2 (from my memory) were agreeing on the lynches, though later at least you changed your opinion, which was as you explained from lots of analysis, though it's still something to keep in mind.

Which two, me and Mizuho or me and Brendan?

The idea was me, Brendan and someone who didn't lynch brendan but did lynch nicolai, seeing as brendan was going to get lynched when I dragged the attention away from him, this was just a small point to say that a scumteam with brendan in it isn't impossible.

Ok, but you also just included yourself in the scumteam, so that wouldn't change my mind at all.

Agatha A. wrote:
6) Now isn't that interesting Natchi, I'd say the pressure is more on me than on you and brendan now is it? I mean, you don't have 2 people going for your head who are both convinced you need to die. Just 1 person questioning you, something that could make you look more towny, though it could also lead to a less towny look, but you don't need to worry about that right? seeing as in the case you're town there's not really a problem as long as you find the mafia and if you're mafia you've got 2 people to back you up... right? So what's making you pressured?

I don't know if i'm pressured, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that we're in LyLo and it is essentially crunch time for town; everybody at this point should be posting actively, since this is the game-deciding moment. You may also be wondering where the pressure is coming from: you have Wakana and you pressuring me, and me and Brendan(although I don't really see anything he's doing to pressure you other than saying "I support Natchi's arguments" etc.) pressuring you.

When you said you were feeling pressured it was actually only Wakana, while meanwhile the pressure from both you and Brendan has been on me.

Again, I wouldn't really call what Brendan's doing as pressure, he really hasn't brought anything new to the conversation : /
You also just said you see me as town, but this makes it sound like you see me as scum. Which is it?

At the moment I made this giant post I was more thinking about the strange things that happened in those 44 posts, not about general behaviour, and while there were some strange things in those 44 posts I had to read through all of a sudden, your overal behaviour, something I hadn't thought about, seems like that of a town player. Think about it, how much does it happen that a mafia player says to be 99% sure about someone even though that player isn't really under attack or anything at that moment? Though a mafia would possibly follow it when someone says to be sure about it, of course it wouldn't be very smart to go in with all 3 until all 3 of you are on and the villy has actually lynched, just one of them to try and convince the rest of the town. All 3 would be a bit strange wouldn't it? suddely 4 people who all sort of thought a person was neutral or whatever earlier suddenly being sure that the player is mafia... that wouldn't work.

Hmm, alright.

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.
While that is what I'm doing, as I said before I have kind of been using this as a game to test a few things earlier, so I wont be doing that as much anymore from NOW on, seeing as it clearly doesn't really work, and as I explained in response to mizuho, being scummy on purpose would be idiotic. I hope you believe me when I say I'm not an idiot.

I think Mizuho may have been saying that you were trying to create crutches for yourself to fall back on if you seem scummy. I still don't exactly know what you mean by this being a "test game." Why would you test things in a game like this!?

When else am I going to test forums mafia tactics? Seeing as it doesn't work, I now know that I shouldn't do that, it doesn't really help out town to get lynched if you're a villager... though I seem to be pretty bad at not being scummy lately... Anyways, as I said, there aren't really much ways to test a tactic for forums mafia, and seeing as I don't really have experience with forums mafia I'll need some sort of tactic that works rather than what I've been doing. As you have said, being scummy doesn't help out town.

How about regular forum mafia, and not PSAnon, which is worth points???

Agatha A. wrote:anyways, the question towards Natchi is to explain how I interacted with those "scum partners"

Ok so my main suspicion is Kezoki+you+Warden.
Warden slowly changed your position on his readlist from mafia to town, while Kezoki brought you up to neutral (if I remember correctly). I've covered why you +Kezoki would make sense, so i'll just talk about you+Warden. Essentially, while Warden has been relatively inactive, he only had you as scum when a majority of people wanted to lynch you, and seemed like he switched you up to town as soon as he could. You have both townread each other and really never been aggressive/pushy towards each other. I don't think you can be a scumteam with me, Brendan, or Mizuho at this point. I believe I also covered why you+Wakana would make sense. (for a Wakana+you+Warden scumteam  

Okay I get it but what if that was a plan? In the situation where Warden is mafia and I am a villy he could also be tricking you, say Warden thinks I'll either turn out to be pro-town or turn out to be scummy, if I turn out pro-town that could kind of drag the attention away from him seeing as he seemed to have the right idea faster, if I turn out scummy the thing where warden put me as town so fast will make me seen even MORE scummy, possibly leading to a lynch for me. Once again, this is only theoretical and I am not really sure who to trust right now and who not to trust, this doesn't say anything about who I actually think is scum, because I'm sort of clueless right now. All I know is that we'll have to decide tomorrow (IRL time), and I'd rather not get lynched by that time. It would suck to be the reason town loses...

So are you going after Warden now? Interesting.

Mizuho N. wrote:Well it does seem like a war between Agatha and Natchi is happening. Although there has been some conflict between Natch + Brendan and wakana, The Natchi vs Agatha is much much more noticeable and serious i guess.

So atm what i can tell from Natchi is that he has been extremely hard-working since it is lylo which is what he hasnt been doing that much for the past days. Maybe Kezoki's theory is accurate? Perhaps. But aside from that he has worked hard to keep town on its feet as we are in Lylo. To be honest, I cant really find anything scummy on him and he has been clarifying all of his actions well.

Agatha on the other hand has been going kinda defensive while trying to attack Natchi on pretty much anything. Its not really working because as the conversation is going, Agatha has been attacking less and defending more because every attack has been countered and is adding to the stuff Agatha has to defend.

At the moment It seems like Natchi has the upper hand in this war. Unlike Kezoki vs Osashi in the past, this seems a little bit one sided.

So since the deadline is tomorrow, we need to decide who we are gonna lynch. But we need to keep in mind that this is potentially our last chance if we dont do this right.

At the moment, from what I have seen, the possible lynches are Agatha and Brendan (I think, I might have missed some).

I...honestly need more time to determine whether Agatha is scum or not. I'm not sure anymore.

Agatha A. wrote:It's actually not really a war between Natchi and me, it's actually turned into Natchi attacking me and me just well... attacking no one, because I'm sort of clueless as to who would be mafia. Though either way I'd rather not die and make town lose like that, and we don't have a lot of time left.

From what I've seen there is indeed a possible lynch on me, also one on Brendan, but actually the mafia can also be someone else... In fact, stating 2 lynch options is kind of scummy Mizuho, especially if you aren't one of them, because if you're the mafia you would love to direct attention to 2 people you know being villy, or at least I'd guess you would.

Yes, you have suddenly become extremely apologetic suddenly, which is somewhat scummy. You've completely changed the way you talked after I and other people brought it up as being scummy.
I honestly don't know what to think right now....
I need more time to analyze Agatha, although i'm thinking a Kezoki+Agatha+Warden scumteam still makes sense.
I'm also not sure about Kezoki, but I really do think Warden is scum.

This may seem sudden, (and honestly it is, aj isn't giving us enough time >_> [hey, at least I can blame it on him if we lose]) but i'm going to Lynch: Warden H.

I've been thinking a lot and honestly the only person i'm sure of as town right now is Wakana. My reasoning for Brendan is really shaky, and Mizuho is starting to seem scummy because she just dropped off of the face of the earth randomly and hasn't helped town very much at all. Everyone's just been hanging back and letting Agatha and I fight.

Essentially, i've got this right now:
TOWN: Wakana
LEANING TOWN, BUT NOT SURE: Mizuho, Brendan
LEANING SCUM, BUT NOT SURE: Kezoki, Agatha
SCUM: Warden

I don't know guys, I really don't know.

Also, town... at least two others of you need to vote with me or the other three of you need to vote who you think is scum, or else we've automatically lost. Please, please, PLEASE come on. I don't want to lose a game because of how inactive town is : /

...for the record, if i'm wrong here, I get to blame aj because he didn't give us an extension (5 days isn't enough for me >________> and i'm feeling really rushed, but this is my best guess as to who scum is based on what i've seen and analyzed).

Natchi F. wrote:

Kezoki Q. wrote:Actually yes, like Warden said LYLO will draw out the mafia and make them more likely to participate. This is why Warden and Mizuho seem more like town right now, and Brendan and Agatha seem more like mafia.

I honestly don't understand the logic behind this. Why the hell would town not begin posting more at LyLo, given it's their last chance? Also, why didn't you include me in this list?
(Here, we've got some further evidence for Kezoki+Warden).

As much as I disagree with your reads today, (Saying Wakana is the only Clear person while I am certain he is scum), I still believe that you are town, this is why I didn't include you.

Hmm, alright.

Natchi, I'm the type that tends to give up if I'm losing. I haven't completely given up yet, but I'm struggling to get the motivation to scumhunt, especially since im not making progress with my scumhunting.

That being said Natchi/Mizuno look town, last town slot for me would be either Wakana or Kezoki.

Brendan T. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:I'm wondering, what were your motives? Other than the one Natchi brought up recently, people seemed to just keep clinging onto the argument that I wasn't active at first, but I doubt that was your motive, so what WAS it?

I dont think I ever brought up your inactivity, and if I did it was at least 2 days ago.  What I have against you is that the points you are trying to make dont make sense to me and you change your opinion on people (or at least it seems that way) so many times that I don't know what you think of them.  Your early inactivity doesn't factor into my thought process at all.

Err... my whole point was that you would NOT keep my inactivity of the start in mind? Also, changing opinion on people after thinking about something for a while is very normal, if that's what you have against me why are you so sure about natchi being town? He changes opinion a lot. A lot.

Natchi F. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:

Natchi F. wrote:

Mizuho N. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote:
7) I'm just wondering, who all are thinking I'm scum right now? Because so far Brendan and Natchi surely think I am. I'm not sure about what the rest of y'all think and I can't be bothered to check back just for this, there are more important things.

Well for me I have a neutral read on you, i have explained my reasons for the town aspects about you. But the problem is that you are a bit too....not sure how to describe it.....aggresive defensiveness? You seem to attack everyone who goes against you. Also you keep talking about how mafia acts and how its different to yours. It seems as though you are saying this to divert our attention on what you are doing and also it seems you are deliberately acting scummy so that then you have an excuse if people suspect you about something. 
The latter part of this better explains part of why I think Agatha is scum.
While that is what I'm doing, as I said before I have kind of been using this as a game to test a few things earlier, so I wont be doing that as much anymore from NOW on, seeing as it clearly doesn't really work, and as I explained in response to mizuho, being scummy on purpose would be idiotic. I hope you believe me when I say I'm not an idiot.

I think Mizuho may have been saying that you were trying to create crutches for yourself to fall back on if you seem scummy. I still don't exactly know what you mean by this being a "test game." Why would you test things in a game like this!?

When else am I going to test forums mafia tactics? Seeing as it doesn't work, I now know that I shouldn't do that, it doesn't really help out town to get lynched if you're a villager... though I seem to be pretty bad at not being scummy lately... Anyways, as I said, there aren't really much ways to test a tactic for forums mafia, and seeing as I don't really have experience with forums mafia I'll need some sort of tactic that works rather than what I've been doing. As you have said, being scummy doesn't help out town.

How about regular forum mafia, and not PSAnon, which is worth points???

That would be a good idea if I wouldn't get killed so fast on there, when people know who I am I tend to die very fast.

Agatha A. wrote:anyways, the question towards Natchi is to explain how I interacted with those "scum partners"

Ok so my main suspicion is Kezoki+you+Warden.
Warden slowly changed your position on his readlist from mafia to town, while Kezoki brought you up to neutral (if I remember correctly). I've covered why you +Kezoki would make sense, so i'll just talk about you+Warden. Essentially, while Warden has been relatively inactive, he only had you as scum when a majority of people wanted to lynch you, and seemed like he switched you up to town as soon as he could. You have both townread each other and really never been aggressive/pushy towards each other. I don't think you can be a scumteam with me, Brendan, or Mizuho at this point. I believe I also covered why you+Wakana would make sense. (for a Wakana+you+Warden scumteam  

Okay I get it but what if that was a plan? In the situation where Warden is mafia and I am a villy he could also be tricking you, say Warden thinks I'll either turn out to be pro-town or turn out to be scummy, if I turn out pro-town that could kind of drag the attention away from him seeing as he seemed to have the right idea faster, if I turn out scummy the thing where warden put me as town so fast will make me seen even MORE scummy, possibly leading to a lynch for me. Once again, this is only theoretical and I am not really sure who to trust right now and who not to trust, this doesn't say anything about who I actually think is scum, because I'm sort of clueless right now. All I know is that we'll have to decide tomorrow (IRL time), and I'd rather not get lynched by that time. It would suck to be the reason town loses...

So are you going after Warden now? Interesting.

I said "this is only theoretical", with which I meant that I don't know if that's actually the case or not, if Warden is scum then that can very well be a plan, if he isn't... well then it's kinda random.

Agatha A. wrote:It's actually not really a war between Natchi and me, it's actually turned into Natchi attacking me and me just well... attacking no one, because I'm sort of clueless as to who would be mafia. Though either way I'd rather not die and make town lose like that, and we don't have a lot of time left.

From what I've seen there is indeed a possible lynch on me, also one on Brendan, but actually the mafia can also be someone else... In fact, stating 2 lynch options is kind of scummy Mizuho, especially if you aren't one of them, because if you're the mafia you would love to direct attention to 2 people you know being villy, or at least I'd guess you would.

Yes, you have suddenly become extremely apologetic suddenly, which is somewhat scummy. You've completely changed the way you talked after I and other people brought it up as being scummy.
I honestly don't know what to think right now....
I need more time to analyze Agatha, although i'm thinking a Kezoki+Agatha+Warden scumteam still makes sense.
I'm also not sure about Kezoki, but I really do think Warden is scum.

Well I did say I would get serious now. Me being serious is going to my usual playing tactic, only then with the addition of me trying harder to win.

On another note, Natchi, your lynch on Warden leaves me with 2 options, lynching you, and lynching Warden. Seeing as I doubt we'll be able to pull off a lynch with 3 people earlier than scum, and even if we do it'll be very risky, so I have 2 options, trusting you as town and your judgement, or not trusting you as town. I either lynch Warden or you. The way things are looking right now it'll be a Warden lynch, but not before the end of the day (IRL) or when the situation is getting dangerous. Until that time you guys can try convincing me (damn that sounds weird... all I've been doing during the game is convincing others hahaha)

Lynch Warden H.

as I explained I have no time or options, sorry. My reason: Natchi could have easily gotten rid of me if he was mafia, he would surely get the lynch on me working, on warden is a different case though. Take it as a scumteam between me and Natchi or as Natchi being town, there is no other option. This is why I trust Natchi right now, and I hope his judgement is right. Also: at that giant message I said "you got me there", that was a trap set up to see if natchi would twist it towards me "confessing" I'm mafia, seeing as he didn't fell for it that's another point that proves he's either not too keen in taking literal words and interpretating them anymore or he's not mafia.

Lynch Warden kisses all around

hi5 Kezoki!

/me high fives Ms. Mizuho N.

Man nothing is better than a perfect win lol. And yeah hi5 Brendan when you get here.

I think town just got rekt by the mafia who were more town than town LOL

ajhockeystar wrote:Votecount 5.2
******************************
Brendan T.(0)-
Osashi D.(0)-
Kezoki Q.(0)-
Agatha A.(0)-
Warden H.(0)-
Mizuho N.(0)-
Wakana O.(0)-
Natchi F.(0)-
Not Voting(7)- Natchi F., Wakana O., Osashi D., Agatha A., Warden H., Kezoki Q., Mizuho N., Brendan T.
******************************
There are 7 alive so it takes 4 to hammer. Plurality applies.
The village is in lylo.
Deadline is Monday the 15th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Brendan T. would be lynched.

if anyone says that hammer does not exist and that we havent won yet, it clearly says "There are 7 alive so it takes 4 to hammer. Plurality applies." So you can hammer.

Nope I asked aj about it this morning. We Won. GG.

GG, wait till town sees this lol

/me high fives Warden for being scummy af on lylo

Dammit natchi for leaving me no choice :< I told you many times something was wrong with them but noooo... you didn't believe me. And warden too! You didn't believe him either! Heck you didn't even believe me about brendan... nlame inactives and time :< otherwise I would have tried convincing natchi to do something else.

Anyways, kezoki, what were the plans?

What plans? The initial lynch target was you agatha, so all 3 of us were softing you, but Natchi just lynched warden and we were waiting for Brendan to come online to hammer but you helped, so thank you xD