Game 12: Vengeful Mafia Mafia

Mizuho N. wrote:I just read through the posts and saw a lot of "what if"s. I think evidence should be present as well as a load of if statements  (programming joke). But i understand that there isnt much evidence about what Osashi really thought of Kenzo but oh well.

Kezoki Q. wrote:
That's the point, why would Osashi, if she was town, strongly believe that another guy, who barely posted anything, is town. That's exactly what I found scummy, she only said "hey this guy is town don't lynch him", so that when he does flip town, she'd seem like the good guy who didn't want Kenzo to be lynched.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valid point I guess, but, if I was mafia, that nervousness you're speaking of wouldn't be showing a whole 4 days before the deadline, and also I wouldn't be that obvious and OMGUS like that.

Natchi F. wrote:

Agatha A. wrote: About Natchi, I know I said that a bit much but it was more like a "yeah I was wrong about that, I actually have him as townread now", when I just looked back at it I don't know why I phrased it that way... but meh, the point of it is the same, townread. Also, bussing? I guess that's being nice to people and making them townreads so they don't lynch you? yeah that was unintentional... oh well

I'm referring to the fact that you came out with a scumread on me but then somewhat quickly reversed your stance (although you did explain that it was because you thought over it more, I was just commenting that it coincidentally looked like bussing, whether that was intentional or not).

Mizuho N. wrote:I thought bussing is when you attack your own scum teammate so that people dont think you 2 are a scumteam.

That is generally true, although there are variations on it.

Osashi D. wrote: From this I should point out somethings. At this point, agatha did way less than me, however, he inclined on lynching me instead? Can you elaborate why? I feel like you're just finding a reason to keep on lynching someone everyday. It was an early lynch to, were you afraid i was gonna lynch you first?

Note: I think kezoki changed his mindset from inactive = useless to scummy = useless without a cause, he went as far as lynching agatha but now he changed his mind, rather abruptly.

Therefore lynch kezoki

Didn't he have a reason (whether valid or not is another debate) that he lynched you? Also, why wouldn't you want a reason to lynch someone every day? how else do you expect town to win?
Did you mistate your note, or did you mean that? I mean, if you think someone is scummy, you're less likely to think that they'll be helping town (because, you know, you think they're scum). Given, this isn't the most helpful mindset to have (if kezoki even has this mindset) but it's still a logical one when looking at the human train of thought.
The lynch seems really omgus-y... Both of your lynches do, honestly. : /

Well I don't consider my vote as OMGUS for the reason that I had lynched him the day before, and day 3 he did not prove anything more townie to me and in fact more scummy, therefore there is no reason for me , at least, not to lynch him. What I mean by lynching someone every day is that he is too reckless and easy to lynch, for example, he lynched very early on in the day. I think we should discuss lynches first. What I'm trying to say is from reading his lynches post I get the feeling of "OH you are scummy? LYNCH ____" "Oh you've become more active I see, then I'll lynch _____ instead". From experience a mafia you tend to be more reckless about lynching people because you don't have to worry about risking a townie.

Kezoki Q. wrote:
5-@Natchi : I think I cleared things up with the agatha thing when we agreed that I had mentioned her coming online at the very beginning of the game, she thought I was being scummy because she misinterpreted me as saying she came online when she never did. I understand that you find me as being scummy. How so?

Where'd I say you were scummy again? I probably had reasoning for it if I stated I thought you were scummy, and I could use the post to elaborate on why I said what I said (I don't actually remember calling you scummy, but I may have just forgotten about the post).

Kezoki Q. wrote:You'll have to excuse me as I don't know how to multi-quote

Press the multi-quote button on each post that you want to quote, then click the "post reply" button on the bottom; it'll take you to a page with all of the quotes in them.

Osashi D. wrote:Well I have to go for now so I'll list my defenses:

1) I did not town read everyone and imo my read list was not incomplete. I clearly wasn't trying to get on everyone good side because if that was so I would list everyone as town, which is kinda dumb for a read list.

2) I would never disagree with lynching inactives if I was mafia.

3) I think Kezoki lynch is more of a OMGUS and for his own safety.
"Well Osashi, do you have a better idea? I can say for certain that I have seen Kenzo online at least twice, the least he could do is post here. Also he confirmed his role, so we know he knows how to post xD."

I think he's a bit easy on the lynch side. I believe we shouldn't rush lynches like the past two days.

5) (my personal conclusion) I think kezoki and agatha may be scum..

1) Well, you did null/neutral/townread everyone, so you didn't go ahead and be antagonistic towards any single person or multiple people; that could be seen as trying to get on everyone's good side, yes?
Yes and No. If my aim was to get on everyone's good side I wouldn't have lynch Kezoki and even regard some as null. There is no reason to do that.
2) I... of course you could! It's simply thinking long-term instead of short-term. People may look back and say "oh, Osashi wanted to lynch inactives a lot, that's kind of scummy" and it could put pressure on you. If you were mafia, you'd want to do everything you can to appear town, and thus you'd probably disagree with lynching inactives or just not comment on it.
Now this is the situation I am super confused about. If I do this, I may be mafia because ____. However if I do that, I may be mafia because _______. Whatever anyone do, there will be 2 sides. Let's take a look at kezoki lynch on me. On one hand, he can be seen as lynch-happy. His trend of lynching change abruptly. On the other hand, he was just going with his feelings and as you have said before, he is trying to lynch the scummy -- and that's how town win. It also applies to this situation. I truly believed lynching Kenzo was not the best move nor was agatha. It is time to risk a townie. It is up to you what you believe I guess.
3) How is your own lynch any different from Kezoki's? They seem to both be OMGUS's with hasty and not that great reasoning behind it (very little stuff that I think is scummy and/or valid). Also, technically, your vote is the OMGUS since Kezoki voted you first. Kezoki has also shown that he's willing to switch his lynch if better evidence for another person comes up (see: Jenina). Yes, that can be seen as lynch-happy, but isn't a willingness to listen to others and change one's own opinion as a result a town-like quality?
I won't be so sure about what you said. I lynched Kezoki during Day 2 and just because he lynched me first today, my relynch on him will be an OMGUS? Kezoki has not prove anything today, and it is logical for me to lynch him considering I already did Day 2. Also, about listening to others and changing one's own opinion, is he doing that because he is town or just to secure his position and go with the flow? I think the fact that he lynch very early on Day 2 and 3 supports the second point more.
5) Both you and Kezoki seem to think Agatha is scum/somewhat scummy(iirc). Why aren't you voting her instead of each other, since that's what you both agree on?
I would if Kezoki agrees. However, since Kezoki has given Agatha a chance and Agatha did come back and become active I don't see any reason he would want to lynch her.

Osashi D. wrote:
I never participated in both Jenina and Kenzo lynch because i had a guy feeling they were town. In pretty much all games I joined the inactive is town. But meh, town had a mindset of lynching an inactive/lurker at that time which brings me to my next point. No i wasn't protecting agatha, brendan and nikolai, i was just asking why you decided to lynch me instead of one of them because you seems to be going with the trend of lynching an inactive the last few days.

A "guy" feeling?
If you felt they were town, why didn't you try to defend them at all? Given, town had a mindset of lynching the inactive/lurkers, but if you did feel that they were town, you should have taken an active presence in defending them.
Also, who is to say trends cannot change? Simply because the votes have been for inactives in the past does not mean that they cannot change.
Trends can change but they shouldn't be abrupt. Being abrupt means that they're lynch happy. If they truly want to contribute I think we should discuss with the town first. Also there was no use to defend Kenzo. First of all, I have no idea if he is town or mafia. As I jokingly said, if he turns out mafia and I defended him too much I will be the next target. Remember, I am in the same position as all of you - I have no clue at all. Secondly, what do I gain from defending. To look townier? No, as you argued I could be thinking long-term. To perhaps change a lynch? No, town had a strong mindset of lynching lurkers already. + in order to change the lynch it would either be Kezoki or Agatha which I don't think Mizuho would wanna lynch Kezoki and I wouldn't support an Agatha lynch either since we would gain little info.

Brendan T. wrote:

Mizuho N. wrote:

Brendan T. wrote:Hey guys, REALLY sorry about the whole inactive thing, went on a vacation then never bothered to catch up.  Anyhow I'm here now and have read through all 12 pages of discussion.  I dont feel capable of putting together a read list just yet, but I may make one soon.  Just from skimming Im finding Kenzo as the scummiest.  More opinions to come.

Finally Brendan is here lol, now we just need Nicolai and we have the full playerlist active.

Brendan i suggest you should actually read the thread instead of skimming it as clearly you havent noticed the fact Kenzo was lynched and was flipped as town.

Well then.  I blame aj for not updating the alive/dead list

If you read through everything, shouldn't you have known that Kenzo was lynched and revealed as VT?

I was generally addressing Osashi's points + some other posts here, i'll go ahead and do Kezoki's points in the next post.

Kezoki Q. wrote:

Natchi F. wrote:
I don't think she's saying that you're protecting those three. What she's saying is that you've randomly switched from doing what you have before, lynching the inactives and those that have not helped whatsoever, to lynching her (most likely because she lynched you the day before). Although she may have not come on and argued an extremely large amount against lynching kenzo, she still did voice her opinion against lynching him. Sure, going against the majority is generally a mafia tactic, especially when the person being lynched is town, but what if Osashi is town who strongly believed Kenzo was town?

That's the point, why would Osashi, if she was town, strongly believe that another guy, who barely posted anything, is town. That's exactly what I found scummy, she only said "hey this guy is town don't lynch him", so that when he does flip town, she'd seem like the good guy who didn't want Kenzo to be lynched.

I never said Kenzo was town. I simply said that it was unreasonable to lynch Kenzo because we don't even know why he is lurking or what we he would have said if he was active. Who knows, he could turn out to be a town leader that was just super busy? Also we gained no information. We lynched Jenina and nothing happened so we come into day 2 blind. We lynched Kenzo day 2 so now we're in day 3 blind. These are the reasons why I didn't like the Kenzo lynch. If you have thought about this, what didn't you mention it yesterday? I think this supports my other argument that Kezoki is too lynch happy. He tries to lynch anyone when opportunities open and when it goes wrong, he will find any other reason (despite strong or weak) to find another lynch target. As Natchi said though that's how town win, but I think Kezoki is just securing his position here.

Mizuho N. wrote:
But there was also no sign that town was gonna lynch anyway, which means Kezoki gets lynched. Normally mafia are nervous even when they just get lynched because of the risk of plurality

Valid point I guess, but, if I was mafia, that nervousness you're speaking of wouldn't be showing a whole 4 days before the deadline, and also I wouldn't be that obvious and OMGUS like that.

Natchi F. wrote:

Mizuho N. wrote:I just read through the posts and saw a lot of "what if"s. I think evidence should be present as well as a load of if statements  (programming joke). But i understand that there isnt much evidence about what Osashi really thought of Kenzo but oh well.

Given that these if statements are not the best evidence, what else do you suggest we do? Surely, provide concrete evidence? While this may be a good idea, i'm certain that an argument could occur that would make us go in circles(or loops, maybe?   )

Well we are gonna have to try to compile our thoughts which could translate them to an executable file (evidence). Except ScumError. Which means we have to trace the posts.

Kezoki Q. wrote:
That's the point, why would Osashi, if she was town, strongly believe that another guy, who barely posted anything, is town. That's exactly what I found scummy, she only said "hey this guy is town don't lynch him", so that when he does flip town, she'd seem like the good guy who didn't want Kenzo to be lynched.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valid point I guess, but, if I was mafia, that nervousness you're speaking of wouldn't be showing a whole 4 days before the deadline, and also I wouldn't be that obvious and OMGUS like that.

1: She already stated why she believed so, iirc: that generally, the inactives tend to be town. Something like that, anyways.

She said that? To be honest i didnt think she did, but if so then thats completely false and I am sure you guys know why.

2: However, knowing that town generally trusts you a bit more than Osashi (which is at least what i've been able to tell by posts), why would you lynch other than to save yourself from when Osashi would inevitably (in your view) lynch you?

Mizuho N. wrote:LMAO thats hilarious, my safesettings thing blocked this site for like 20 seconds because it was classified as pornography! Maybe it was a pop-up? Not sure.

Anyway I am not quoting Osashi coz its WAAAAY too long, so i will respond without quoting. This is the post when Osashi replied to Natchis comments. The replies are in order and there is a blank line to separare each one.

You have a point for mafia being too lynch happy. But from experience (I had a pretty long one) that agressive and pretty effective townies also do the same thing. However now this strategy makes the person get lynched pretty quickly for being too aggro which is what scum does quite a bit (especially near the end). So i guess we cant say 100% if that piece of evidence means that Kezoki is scum or town. Also, i do think Kezoki did an OMGUS lynch but i dont disagree that Osashi did one either. In fact when it comes to OMGUS you are both as bad as each other.

The problem is that this game has no method of verifying information because there is no investigative roles. I don't think it is best in this game to be aggressive as both mafia or town. Firstly, rapid lynching (lynching early) is not good at all. It only shows that you are lynch-happy. To me personally, town cannot respond effectively because there is no way to prove if Kezoki lynch is right or wrong. Therefore, town usually stay neutral and don't take actions. This means that the person that lynches first in the game will win, which I don't think is a good thing. As mafia, being too aggressive in this format is bad for obvious reasons. If you keep on lynching without good reasoning then people will look at you badly. This is probably the reason why most of the mafia in this game haven't been lynching at all. Therefore, my conclusion is that any aggressive players should be lynched as they are not helping town at all.

Thats true but I mean of course, it would be way too obvious if you actually did what you just said. So mafia is obviously gonna comprimise.
For sure. However, there is nothing I can do if those were truly my thoughts.

Basically yeah, mostly everything has a scum side and a town side. For example, say I post an intricate readlist or something, it could be scummy because I am trying to manipulate town into thinking a certain way. But in stuff like these it's up to your mentality to think logically rather than saying that Natchi F is scummy because his avatar contains Watermelons.
Don't exactly understand what you mean here, sorry

The answer to that question is simply, yes! To determine if a lynch is OMGUS, its literally when you lynnch someone who has lynched you. Whatever the reason really. Remember OMGUS may not necessarily mean its scummy, there can be OMGUS lynches for good reasons, but i dont think both of yours were. But i sort of agree, Kezoki didnt actually prove anything legit, the points he made were sort of flawed, but i do sort of get the gist of what he is trying ti say about Osashi.. (i believe they have been written in another post somewhere, or maybe scattered in multiple posts).

I know that OMGUS can be a good thing. After all, it's just a word to describe an action. However, I have to disagree that you said my lynch wasn't for good reasons. Kezoki was the scummiest person to me during day 2 and on day 3 he proved nothing more than acting even scummier, so I lynched him. If you don't think that the reason is valid then I don't know what to do.

I guess that is something Kezoki is gonna reply to, not me.

Osashi D. wrote:

Mizuho N. wrote:LMAO thats hilarious, my safesettings thing blocked this site for like 20 seconds because it was classified as pornography! Maybe it was a pop-up? Not sure.

Anyway I am not quoting Osashi coz its WAAAAY too long, so i will respond without quoting. This is the post when Osashi replied to Natchis comments. The replies are in order and there is a blank line to separare each one.

You have a point for mafia being too lynch happy. But from experience (I had a pretty long one) that agressive and pretty effective townies also do the same thing. However now this strategy makes the person get lynched pretty quickly for being too aggro which is what scum does quite a bit (especially near the end). So i guess we cant say 100% if that piece of evidence means that Kezoki is scum or town. Also, i do think Kezoki did an OMGUS lynch but i dont disagree that Osashi did one either. In fact when it comes to OMGUS you are both as bad as each other.

The problem is that this game has no method of verifying information because there is no investigative roles. I don't think it is best in this game to be aggressive as both mafia or town. Firstly, rapid lynching (lynching early)  is not good at all. It only shows that you are lynch-happy. To me personally, town cannot respond effectively because there is no way to prove if Kezoki lynch is right or wrong. Therefore, town usually stay neutral and don't take actions. This means that the person that lynches first in the game will win, which I don't think is a good thing. As mafia, being too aggressive in this format is bad for obvious reasons. If you keep on lynching without good reasoning then people will look at you badly. This is probably the reason why most of the mafia in this game haven't been lynching at all. Therefore, my conclusion is that any aggressive players should be lynched as they are not helping town at all.

Thats true but I mean of course, it would be way too obvious if you actually did what you just said. So mafia is obviously gonna comprimise.
For sure. However, there is nothing I can do if those were truly my thoughts.

Basically yeah, mostly everything has a scum side and a town side. For example, say I post an intricate readlist or something, it could be scummy because I am trying to manipulate town into thinking a certain way. But in stuff like these it's up to your mentality to think logically rather than saying that Natchi F is scummy because his avatar contains Watermelons.
Don't exactly understand what you mean here, sorry

The answer to that question is simply, yes! To determine if a lynch is OMGUS, its literally when you lynnch someone who has lynched you. Whatever the reason really. Remember OMGUS may not necessarily mean its scummy, there can be OMGUS lynches for good reasons, but i dont think both of yours were. But i sort of agree, Kezoki didnt actually prove anything legit, the points he made were sort of flawed, but i do sort of get the gist of what he is trying ti say about Osashi.. (i believe they have been written in another post somewhere, or maybe scattered in multiple posts).

I know that OMGUS can be a good thing. After all, it's just a word to describe an action. However, I have to disagree that you said my lynch wasn't for good reasons. Kezoki was the scummiest person to me during day 2 and on day 3 he proved nothing more than acting even scummier, so I lynched him. If you don't think that the reason is valid then I don't know what to do.

I guess that is something Kezoki is gonna reply to, not me.

I would also like to here from him, before I.... (shrugs) die.. Also during deadline I will be sleeping so this night will be the last time I can talk if votes aren't changing.

Osashi D. wrote:Putting this out here for Kezoki:

If you are up for an Agatha lynch, go ahead. I will also lynch her as she is another mafia target in my eyes. I will even ensure you that this is not a trick by Unlynch Kezoki.

If you think I am the scummiest one here, then it's also up to you.

Osashi D. wrote:What do you wanna hear?

I just wanna hear your final thoughts about the current game. Responding to what people posted would be nice.

Kezoki Q. wrote:

Osashi D. wrote:Putting this out here for Kezoki:

If you are up for an Agatha lynch, go ahead. I will also lynch her as she is another mafia target in my eyes. I will even ensure you that this is not a trick by Unlynch Kezoki.

If you think I am the scummiest one here, then it's also up to you.

On one hand this is just another scummy post, you're postponing your own lynch in order to lynch a (possible)  townie. And if I do agree to this you'll just have another reason to say hey look Kezoki is lynch-happy.
On the other hand, yes I do feel Agatha is scummy, and would not be against doing this.
I'd like to hear what the rest of the town thinks, someone will be lynched today, would you rather it be Osashi or Agatha (seeing as I'm convinced at least one of them is scum)

Kezoki Q. wrote:

Osashi D. wrote:What do you wanna hear?

I just wanna hear your final thoughts about the current game. Responding to what people posted would be nice.

I've already said what I have to say, I'd rather hear someone other than you, me and mizuho talk, especially since we need to decide on a lynch. Me, Osashi, or Agatha? Please give reasons so we can decide on the right thing to do.

Osashi D. wrote:
Also, can you name some reasons why I am scummier/worthy of a lynch than Agatha?