Re: Game 11: Vengeful Mafia Mafia

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:35 pm

Sukisoh S. wrote:Read list redux, as requested from our dear Butler:

Butler:
Sukisoh S. wrote:I have 2 lynch counts on me. Can't exactly do anything direct to it, so here is me trying to convince you guys. If you look back on day 1's lynch and day 3's lynch, you will see 2 things in common. The people who lynched Cassandra, are: Butler, Makino, Gizelle. The people who lynched Gizelle, are: Trinity M., Makino C., Rochelle R., Butler P., Gizelle V. (And me since I wanted to lynch Gizelle). The two people in common are Butler and Makino. Call this OMGUS, but I currently believe Butler is scum.

Mickey has placed a lynch on Gizelle on Day 2, but then didn't join the bandwagon on Gizelle on day 3. I can't remember if she had any change of arguments on why not to lynch Gizelle though, so it might not mean much.

Before you go saying how I didn't talk about day 2, I did in my posts afterwards. This was the reason why I lynched you, and thought you were scum. So, as I said before, still scummy in my eyes, but I have another suspect.

Rochelle:
Rochelle has a high chance of bussing Kaito (who was active but inactive) and is mildly uncooperative in giving out evidence for her actions (meaning she is vague). She recently hasn't done too many scummy actions (which does not mean we can ignore her past actions) but doesn't have a read on anyone; even those who she thinks if more scummy than the other. So, as I said before, still scummy in my eyes, but I have another suspect.

Trinity:
Trinity, despite having little activity (which makes it slightly harder to get a read), is town-read by me as her posts are consistent and logical, and that she doesn't seem to have too much scummy activity.

Fergus:
I suggested that he was town as he views possibilities from different angles (as shown when he suggested that Rochelle isn't scum). However, he has mostly focused on Rochelle (look at his past posts), and could potentially be overfocused on her. Still town in my opinion, but if Rochelle flips town, I'd say Fergus is a good scum suspect.

I already stop focusing on her after giving my statement that she is town.

Makino:
I do not want to go back onto why I think Makino is scum, but its basically based on an earlier theory of mine and (partially) my mistake of misreading the deadline.

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:36 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:Okay we have to lynch today. To be honest, I don't know whom to lynch. We could lynch Fergus, who has been the least logical imo. Or we could lynch Butler, who seems to have slightly scummy traits. Or we could lynch Makino, who has been scrutinized lately.

Or we could lynch me.

So, what'll it be?

Ok, posts like this confused me frustrates me. I don't like how you use the word "least logical" when I have been attempting to use scum hunting techniques.

Weren't you the one that brought up points like "Oh he is subbed a lot so probably scum" and not elaborating or explaining what you want to achieve?

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:27 pm

Fergus K. wrote:
Rochelle R. wrote:Okay we have to lynch today. To be honest, I don't know whom to lynch. We could lynch Fergus, who has been the least logical imo. Or we could lynch Butler, who seems to have slightly scummy traits. Or we could lynch Makino, who has been scrutinized lately.

Or we could lynch me.

So, what'll it be?

Ok, posts like this confused me frustrates me. I don't like how you use the word "least logical" when I have been attempting to use scum hunting techniques.

Weren't you the one that brought up points like "Oh he is subbed a lot so probably scum" and not elaborating or explaining what you want to achieve?

I think that, of the players, you have used the least clear logic. That is my opinion.

Ok you and butler both keep coming back to this point. I brought up that you've been subbed a lot. I did not say that you are "probably scum" because of it. I spent a whole page arguing whether it was relevant, which I think it is, but I never said that it madxe you scum.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:34 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:
Fergus K. wrote:Sorry for my lack of activity despite just being subbed. I have quite a few things to do in school today. You can expect more posts from me tomorrow.
So this trips two alarms. One is the fact that he is making an excuse when he had time to come on, and probably ought to have had time to post a few hasty observations. The second is the fact that he is the third sub, which from past experience indicates scum.

I said it trips alarms. I never siad you were scum because of it, and I never said you were scummy for just that reason.

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:36 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:
Rochelle R. wrote:
Fergus K. wrote:Sorry for my lack of activity despite just being subbed. I have quite a few things to do in school today. You can expect more posts from me tomorrow.
So this trips two alarms. One is the fact that he is making an excuse when he had time to come on, and probably ought to have had time to post a few hasty observations. The second is the fact that he is the third sub, which from past experience indicates scum.
I said it trips alarms. I never siad you were scum because of it, and I never said you were scummy for just that reason.

"which from past experience indicates scum"

If you were just making an observation, you wouldn't include that. That statement implies that those who matches with what you describe is scum.

Also can you point out something illogical about me?

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:38 pm

If you think that I am the least logical, compared to other who have been talking the whole game, it means that one of my post (or more) seems illogical to you, so what I want you to show me and I'll elaborate.

by Butler P. Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:52 pm

@Sukisoh

So after nearly 5 in-game days that is all you have picked up, and you believed you had a case good enough to place a lynch on me yesterday? (Don't start posting about how I am a hypocrite and whatnot, I made it clear that the Fergus being subbed out more than once deal wasn't the only reason I lynched Rochelle.)

@Rochelle and everyone else who said something like Rochelle earlier

Okay, so I thought that the generic "there are some off things about him" comments were over, but apparently not. Rochelle just said that I "seemed to have some scummy traits." Alright. What are these traits? If you don't explain them, I just get the feeling that you don't actually have anything to say about me and that you're repeating the same general statement that others have said several times. (Also, if you say aggressiveness, I hope you have an argument prepared as to why aggressiveness is a scumtell, because it is my playstyle of choice.)

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Butler P. wrote:@Sukisoh

So after nearly 5 in-game days that is all you have picked up, and you believed you had a case good enough to place a lynch on me yesterday? (Don't start posting about how I am a hypocrite and whatnot, I made it clear that the Fergus being subbed out more than once deal wasn't the only reason I lynched Rochelle.)

@Rochelle and everyone else who said something like Rochelle earlier

Okay, so I thought that the generic "there are some off things about him" comments were over, but apparently not. Rochelle just said that I "seemed to have some scummy traits." Alright. What are these traits? If you don't explain them, I just get the feeling that you don't actually have anything to say about me and that you're repeating the same general statement that others have said several times. (Also, if you say aggressiveness, I hope you have an argument prepared as to why aggressiveness is a scumtell, because it is my playstyle of choice.)

"I think you have scummy trats"
What was that from, page 3? Lately I've said you tend to scumread for just one reason.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:19 pm

Fergus:
I had a whole deate with butler about the sub thing in which I made it clear that this alone doesn't prove anything, and that I only felt that it was relevant.

An example of you being illogical is when you townread me (ironically). I made a post about why I thought it was illogical.

by Butler P. Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:43 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:Okay we have to lynch today. To be honest, I don't know whom to lynch. We could lynch Fergus, who has been the least logical imo. Or we could lynch Butler, who seems to have slightly scummy traits. Or we could lynch Makino, who has been scrutinized lately.

Or we could lynch me.

So, what'll it be?

Page 30 actually, Ms. Rochelle.

by Butler P. Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:45 pm

Butler P. wrote:I'm going to Lynch Rochelle. Every time she says something, I feel like we have to force her to back it up, and even when she does, she doesn't back them up well. I also feel as if she's been trying to find reasons to suspect me just because I have questioned her often (In fact, me questioning her often was one of here reasons).

One of the biggest things that rubbed me the wrong way about Rochelle was how she turned the number of times Fergus was subbed out into a reason to suspect him. She said that her past experiences told her that this was scummy. Well, let's look at game 9, for example, which had a whopping three players subbed out twice.

Users that were subbed out twice and flipped Mafia: Akina E.

Users that were subbed out twice and flipped Town: Robert O., Gulzar L.

So, since this happened once, it is a scummy thing now?

Do you really think this is lynching for one reason? Did you miss the entire first paragraph?

by Butler P. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:34 pm

So, the day is about to end. I do not want to make this a long winded post. (although, it may be that way by the time I am finished with it.)

Alright, I think Ms. Rochelle is the scummiest. I will probably be repeating myself a load in this post, so I'll try to keep it simple. She makes plenty of statements, but never tries to back them unless we ask her to. It has only been a couple of times that she has actually gathered evidence to back up her claims. When she accused me of "seeming to be against her the whole game" it didn't seem clear what she was trying to prove with it. Also, one of her biggest gripes against me is that my scumreads have all been based on one thing. However, this is only true for my lynch on the late Ms. Cassandra. That was on day one, however, where there is little info. Like I said back then, day one is all about reaction and mind games, since there are no previous pages to look back on. I saw something scummy about Ms. Cassandra, and went for it. (Again, aggressive is my playstyle of choice.) In my opinion, all of this made her scum-hunting fall flat and made it look less genuine.

There's also the entire thing with Mr. Fergus being subbed out twice that I have already made my opinion clear on. I also didn't like how bringing this up had priority over something that was going on right then and there in the game that she was supposedly about to bring up, Fergus's "Omgussiness."

Lynch Rochelle

(Well, that did turn out quite long winded, didn't it.)

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:44 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:Fergus:
I had a whole deate with butler about the sub thing in which I made it clear that this alone doesn't prove anything, and that I only felt that it was relevant.

An example of you being illogical is when you townread me (ironically). I made a post about why I thought it was illogical.

The only reason I read you as town is because no one was supporting you, which logically, means that you're not in any scum team (if there isn't any sort of complicated bussing of course). You didn't necessary prove to me that you are less scummier, and still now, you are the scummiest to me but the reason I read you as town is mainly influenced by what other thinks about you.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:55 pm

Butler P. wrote:
Rochelle R. wrote:Okay we have to lynch today. To be honest, I don't know whom to lynch. We could lynch Fergus, who has been the least logical imo. Or we could lynch Butler, who seems to have slightly scummy traits. Or we could lynch Makino, who has been scrutinized lately.

Or we could lynch me.

So, what'll it be?

Page 30 actually, Ms. Rochelle.

Ah, my bad. I forgot I had written that. If you want a more specific definition of your scumminess, see my last reads post.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:57 pm

Butler P. wrote:
Butler P. wrote:I'm going to Lynch Rochelle. Every time she says something, I feel like we have to force her to back it up, and even when she does, she doesn't back them up well. I also feel as if she's been trying to find reasons to suspect me just because I have questioned her often (In fact, me questioning her often was one of here reasons).

One of the biggest things that rubbed me the wrong way about Rochelle was how she turned the number of times Fergus was subbed out into a reason to suspect him. She said that her past experiences told her that this was scummy. Well, let's look at game 9, for example, which had a whopping three players subbed out twice.

Users that were subbed out twice and flipped Mafia: Akina E.

Users that were subbed out twice and flipped Town: Robert O., Gulzar L.

So, since this happened once, it is a scummy thing now?

Do you really think this is lynching for one reason? Did you miss the entire first paragraph?

Yes. You have a paragraph stating a bunch of things that are vaguely scummy like not backing up posts. Then you spend the rest of it talking about how I said that one thing that "really rubbed you the wrong way" and that apparently was worth a page of argument and pushed me over the edge into the abyss of scum.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:58 pm

lynch fergus
so it's almost the deadline and I'm pretty sure that Fergus and Butler are hanging around to quicklynch me and watch me die.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:59 pm

ul fergus
wait never mind that was the dumbest post ive made all game.

by Butler P. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:01 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:Butler posts relatively frequently and posts long posts. His logic seems somewhat off, and he seems to take one point and scumread someone for it (eg. when he scumread me for just bringing up that fergus had been subbed multiple times). Again, I have a hard time figuring out what all of that means.

"His logic seems somewhat off" again, vague, doesn't answer the question I asked you. "He seems to take one point and scum read someone for it" I explained how this wasn't true with the exception of day one. How does your read list answer my question?

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:03 pm

So, I thought that I had to save myself with a lynch, but there are lynches on others.

See, I don't understand Butler's logic. I do see that I don't back up my claims a lot. But he keeps coming back to Fergus thing. He does, is it just me? I feel like I'm no scummier than the rest, except for the fergus thing.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:04 pm

"he seems to take one point and scumread someone for it" I thought was all that it said. I'll go find some posts. I'm really sorry about that.

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:07 pm

Rochelle R. wrote:lynch fergus
so it's almost the deadline and I'm pretty sure that Fergus and Butler are hanging around to quicklynch me and watch me die.

This implies that we are a scum team, but remember that I have read you as town. To be honest, the more you posts the more scummy you seem to me and even you and Trinity have said that if you were to be your scum partner, you wouldn't protect Rochelle so I might have to change my opinions on Rochelle.

by Fergus K. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:14 pm

Also @Rochelle why do you have to make your status hidden?

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:17 pm

I'll admit this isn't many posts, but I only think Butler's logic is a little off. So here we go.

Butler P. wrote:Gizelle's suicide scum hunting has some merit. Some. I can see where she was coming from. However, the risk versus reward isn't even close. There's the clear first problem, that we are down by one more town member instantly. But, since she was acting so scummy, we spent nearly the entire day talking about Gizelle. Now we have very little going into this day, except for Gizelle's plan making Rochelle the scummiest. And if we lynch Rochelle and this strategy is wrong? We're down two townies and have to lynch three mafia to win, all thanks to Gizelle's faith in her strategy. If this strategy works so well, why haven't I ever seen it used before?

The above post is fairly logical. It seems fine. Except for the last sentence. It's just a little odd that it's thrown in there. It just seems off.

Butler P. wrote:
Rochelle R. wrote:N33T, Kaito turned mafia.
I understand I'm not off the hook. In my defense, I was actually pressured into taking off the lynch from Kaito, and it would have been easy to preserve Kaito had I wanted to.

Yes, it would have been easy to preserve Kaito had you wanted to. You merely had to unlynch him. How does this defend you, exactly?

Also, Toran D. was only subbed out once. See game 8, page 31.

See, here it seems to me that you didn't take into account the first sentence. Idk, I thought this was clear. It seems like an overly aggressive post to me.

Butler P. wrote:Mr. Sukisoh - Has told us many times today and yesterday that he believes I am scummy, yet still hasn't explained how. I'm finding it hard to get a read on him...he made a decent argument when we were on to him, but his most recent read list looked rushed and hastily put together. Neutral

Ms. Trinity - I could copy past my entry from my last read list, and it would be essentially the same. Hasn't posted much, but still plenty of quality posts. Hasn't really taken a stand on anything besides all of Gizelle's madness, but perhaps her readlist will reveal more. Town read.

I feel like everyone is townreading Trinity. Can we not remember that the last time she posted frequently was when she was going after Gizelle? I can see how that's easy to forget, but you don't have any feeling she might be scum?

Mr. Fergus - Haven't been able to get a good read on him...he seems somewhat town like, but again, I can't really tell. It didn't make sense to me how he said so surely that Ms. Rochelle was not mafia. Maybe no one has defended her, but if someone did it would be too obvious that they were a scum team. Neutral/no read

Mr. Makino - People have been against him for most of the game, and I feel as though he has done a decent job of defending himself. His posts make some sense, but there is no denying that he has jumped on bandwagons a couple of times. 55/45 town to scumSo he jumps on bandwagons, a seemingly telltale sign of scum, but that's not as scummy as me bringing up that fergus has been subbed a bunch of times?

Ms. Rochelle - Her most recent "readlist" was just a culmination of different thoughts that didn't combine into anything. She pointed out several things, but she can't decide if they are scummy or not apparently. She brings up so many different things, but she doesn't back them up. 45/55 scum to town
Yes, I said right in the beginning that the read list was going to be a train wreck. How does that make me scummy?

I want to get something out of the way: none of these things are atrocious or even bad. However, accumulated, it evokes a general "off" feeling.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:19 pm

Butler P. wrote:So, that was not the most favorable result yesterday. Now, heading into day 2, Mr. Makino and Ms. Gizelle will be under close inspection, I'm sure. I would like to see more of them, Gizelle in particular.

One of the more intriguing players from yesterday I've noticed was Mr. Andreas. He has been here throughout the entire game, but he hasn't done much. He only enlightened us on a few opinions, and didn't place a vote. This was just something I picked up from yesterday, I would be happy if I could hear opinions on it.

I know I keep coming back to this post, but it's a perfect example of Butler seeming just a little off. Not scummy, just a little unexpected. "Mr. Makino and Ms. Gizelle will be under close inspection, I'm sure." Why are you sure? It's just a little odd.

by Rochelle R. Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:24 pm

Fergus K. wrote:
Rochelle R. wrote:lynch fergus
so it's almost the deadline and I'm pretty sure that Fergus and Butler are hanging around to quicklynch me and watch me die.
This implies that we are a scum team, but remember that I have read you as town. To be honest, the more you posts the more scummy you seem to me and even you and Trinity have said that if you were to be your scum partner, you wouldn't protect Rochelle so I might have to change my opinions on Rochelle.

Yeah and then I realized that you were just online and that you weren't ganging up on me with Butler, and that I don't need to lynch my way out of dying. And that's why my second post exists.

Fergus K. wrote:Also @Rochelle why do you have to make your status hidden?

There are a bunch of reasons, but mainly so that the scum doesn't get accused for being online at night. I have my status hidden so that other people with their status hidden don't seem scummy. Plus it can sort of hide my identity.

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