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Game 34: Purgatory

#hatersgonhate

Game 34: Purgatory

taka yaichi and kathi, my teammates literally never posted in scumchat

i planned very carefully for my flip to heavily implicate kinso, which is why i made that post late day 1 and why i've been defending kinso day 2. i don't know if i could've done more for yaichi but from my pov if i can get two hell mislynches and get myself sent to heaven, that'd be mission accomplished for me.

it'll be YEEAAAAAARRRSSS before you can catch me!

Game 34: Purgatory

i was scum rofl

Game 34: Purgatory

Oh my lord I was reading top of page 5 and I thought deadline was on friday

Game 34: Purgatory

Butch C. wrote:
Taka T. wrote:Tangentially related, in response to Butch's note on Kinso, I don't know if you're looking at the same ISO I am. There are several messages where Kinso is reaching out to Pit who does not respond to him.

"Also this pit guy seems to have lynched me and just hasn't appeared since."
"Also is there any reason you're lynching me, that's the second person on me who hasn't provided an explanation and I'd really like to know why."
'If someone lynches me, that means they think I'm scum. I'd like to know why that is and prove them wrong regardless of if I have plurality or not. "

This is what I meant when I said
"I don't like a Kinso lynch for a few reasons. I actually really like his willingness to engage with pit who voted him. This is in direct contrast with Bart, who seems to hope that people who vote him just eventually forget about his existence. This is a big big big townmarker for me and I think some credence needs to be given to my read here."

We have been reading the same ISOs but it seems we judged the posts in different ways. To me, evidence to show "willingness to engage with Pit" would be him directly asking Pit for anything really in order for them to engage. The post where I truly saw that was the one asking for Pit's reason/checking whether it was an RVS, and actually I guess the one where he says how we wants to prove Pit wrong is an effort of trying to engage despite it not being directly addressed to Pit. Other than that, "Also this pit guy seems to have lynched me and just hasn't appeared since." is really just a complaint and not actually trying to engage. "Also is there any reason you're lynching me, that's the second person on me who hasn't provided an explanation and I'd really like to know why." That was addressed to Kaiser anyway so theres no sign of any effort to engage with Pit.

Well, we still have a few days to figure out who to send, so there's no reason to commit now. If I am getting sent to heaven, then I'd love to hear from Pit, Yaichi, and Kathi's replacement so that I can give more informed reads on them before the phase ends.

Game 34: Purgatory

I'll be around for the next 8 or so hours to chat if any of you want.

Game 34: Purgatory

I've honestly made a conscious decision to step back from the thread, but since I've been summoned I guess I'll post. The problem with inactive games like this from my personal experience is that sometimes I will talk too much, and then the whole thread revolves around me reading people and them townreading me, and then I dont' actually have material to do analysis with. Also the only thing I could possibly have responded to is Evian, and I was genuinely just waiting for his response to you.

We have three days to decide on a wagon. I am not voting Evian, Kaiser, Kathi, Kinso, or Yaichi today because I do not have townreads on them. Pit has not posted this phase. This literally leaves me and Butch. I am more than happy to send butch, and I am even happier to send me because butch has expressed a desire to stay. I'll go over everything that's happened in this phase that I haven't responded to yet.

Kinso has a wordless vote on me. It doesn't inspire me with confidence, but I can imagine it had something to do with my defense of him yesterday. Tangentially related, in response to Butch's note on Kinso, I don't know if you're looking at the same ISO I am. There are several messages where Kinso is reaching out to Pit who does not respond to him.

"Also this pit guy seems to have lynched me and just hasn't appeared since."
"Also is there any reason you're lynching me, that's the second person on me who hasn't provided an explanation and I'd really like to know why."
'If someone lynches me, that means they think I'm scum. I'd like to know why that is and prove them wrong regardless of if I have plurality or not. "

This is what I meant when I said
"I don't like a Kinso lynch for a few reasons. I actually really like his willingness to engage with pit who voted him. This is in direct contrast with Bart, who seems to hope that people who vote him just eventually forget about his existence. This is a big big big townmarker for me and I think some credence needs to be given to my read here."

So there's that, I guess. After that Evian posted and at the time I couldn't think of anything to say in addition to Butch's post (We are asking about RVS intention because I think you were lying about your reason for sticking your vote on me, it's scummy to keep your vote on a RVS target until immediately before deadline, I thought you were avoiding me because in my first wall I had like a big section dedicated to you and you didn't respond to it ever, your vote on me doesn't make sense, etc)

Kaiser is alive again, I think it's super weird that he voted pit but honestly I could use some variety in choices. That being said, I have no idea how he has a stronger read on pit who has done 4 ISO's over his read on butch or me. I still don't like his read on Kinso.

Yaichi, Kathi, Pit have not posted this cycle and I have nothing to say to nothing.

Game 34: Purgatory

Butch C. wrote:
Taka T. wrote:
I've been thinking about the setup. It is actually important to get lynches like Evian out of the way sooner rather than later. The setup is such that the good townies will leave the game soon, by design. If active and visible scum like evian is lynched late in the game (but not before judgment day), they will eventually become the most active and seemingly useful person in the game, and then they are harder to lynch. Let me put it this way, butch. suppose you and I get sent to heaven: who is left to push evian?

Which is why I don't want either of us to be sent to heaven today. To me, being sent to heaven today is almost like a glorified n1 nightkill but with the ability to talk a little bit more. Which is why I dont want to be sent to heaven this early because I want more time in this game and also because I got slight confidence booster after making the right call not to vote bart (which didnt work out in the end rip). I would rather put in the effort to think about who else is town and a good heaven candidate.

Who do you want then?

Game 34: Purgatory

vote butch

Game 34: Purgatory

To recap, here are the three possible votes today from my POV
SCUMMIEST: Bart
SCUMMY, BUT THIS LYNCH NEEDS TO HAPPEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER: Evian
INACTIVE: Kathi

Game 34: Purgatory

OK big post.

I asked pit a question but I don't think I'll have time to actually get an answer in the next 4 hours.

I'm looking at three possible lynches today. Bart, Evian. I'm kind of OK with kinso lynch but to me it's about the same level of certainty as a lynch on kathi, and I'd much rather lynch the person who literally is not here.

I actually did not think that I would be here today, but I have a massive problem with Evian.

The reason I reached out to Pit earlier was because he was doing ISO's of people in the game. I hate ISO's. I think ISO's are almost completely useless. Posts are not made in isolation, so why should they be read that way? There is so much to analyze with regards to what context a post is made in, that is just lost under ISO.

My major problem with Evian is that he has been completely avoiding me since I started posting. This is a guy who is prodding people for activity early in the week, telling people to be less useless, asking people questions. He parks his vote on me. When questioned on it (by Butch), he mangles his explanation COMPLETELY and tries to explain that it was a RVS vote. His vote, as of 12 hours before deadline, was still on me.

How does that make any sense? This cognitive dissonance between what he asks of other people int he game and what he contributes is worrying and is to me what marks a scum player. It's hard to call someone scum by the way they approach the game because hey maybe they do that as town also. But people are scum when they are conflicted with themselves in the way that they approach the game, because they want to look like they're scumhunting when they actually don't need to. When people pretend to be something that they're not, what happens a lot is that the thing they're pretending to be will contradict what they actually are.

Here is my narrative of what happened. Evian parks a vote on me. Tries to seem helpful. When I come back with a gorgeous wall of analysis, he freaks out, gets cold feet, doesn't know what the hell to do or how the hell to respond to me and Butch, and effectively disappears from the game.

Here is NOT a narrative of what happened. Town-evian does good activity prodding and gets the game off to a good start. He is then suddenly OK with being unwilling to push anything and is OK with melting away into the background.

I've been thinking about the setup. It is actually important to get lynches like Evian out of the way sooner rather than later. The setup is such that the good townies will leave the game soon, by design. If active and visible scum like evian is lynched late in the game (but not before judgment day), they will eventually become the most active and seemingly useful person in the game, and then they are harder to lynch. Let me put it this way, butch. suppose you and I get sent to heaven: who is left to push evian?

Evian's flip in either case is hugely informative. I'm happy with sending Butch tomorrow whatever the case, but if he flips scum then there exists a easy kinso vote, if he flips town then we look at people like yaichi and shit like that.

With that said, Vote Evian

I don't like a Kinso lynch for a few reasons. I actually really like his willingness to engage with pit who voted him. This is in direct contrast with Bart, who seems to hope that people who vote him just eventually forget about his existence. This is a big big big townmarker for me and I think some credence needs to be given to my read here.

The second thing is that literally everything Kaiser has been posting has been to tunnel Kinso. Putting the substance aside (although really, my opinion on the substance is the same as I said above, that I like Kinso's willingness to engage with people who vote him), I tend to really REALLY dislike people behind day 1 tunnels. There are 9 players in this game, you have to get reads 8 of them, you have no idea what alignment anybody is, but somehow you've latched onto one person who you really dislike and ignore everyone else? I think this is scummy, and I don't like being on wagon with scum.

(I guess this also makes me feel better about evian vote because the only people scumreading him are me and butch)

And I've talked about bart before. I think bart is lock scum, super scum, super super super scum, even more scum than evian but I want to get rid of evian first because tomorrow we are losing either butch or me and I think we need to hunt the big fish out of the pond first. People in general are afraid of lynching active people, which makes it super easy for people to get away with making transparently scummy posts simply just by making a lot of them.

Game 34: Purgatory

I do not have plurality.

I have thoughts on your reads but I also kind of wait for you to do a real read on me

Game 34: Purgatory

Butch C. wrote:
Taka T. wrote:

Wait you scumread me because I didn't respond to Bart's request, so why does it make sense to you that Bart's request is scummy? Huh? Please respond to this.

I said it makes sense for Evian to FoS Bart because of his request since both of you i believe referred to the fact Bart asked for elaboration on reads that were obviously not serious. However I also said that I thought Bart's reaction was natural because of how you said "hard lock scum" which means personally I don't FoS Bart. Also I never scumread you, I just pressed you to make day 1 more interesting and to transition out of RVS basically (which worked!), but I know full well that even if you did respond to Bart's request there was nothing really to say.

(I am also glad that I aint the only one finding it hard to understand Evian's reply to me, now i know that i am not stupid)

OK, I guess.

You need to be pushing a wagon right now. I've given my list of who is lynchable. You need to give yours.

Game 34: Purgatory

Butch C. wrote:
Taka T. wrote:
Evian W. wrote:
Kinso D. wrote:
Pit B. wrote:
Not sure if this sudden shift in reads was a reaction test or what, but alright.
Anyways:
Vote Kinso D.

Mind Explaining or is this just an RVS thing?

This dazzles my mind a bit. ...Honestly, there's a this part of my brain saying "THIS IS SCUM" while the other half is saying "THIS IS TOWN" since this actually makes no sense. I don't see why he would lynch you albeit RVS. But you asking for a reason... I don't know, really

hey just leaving this for posterity, if either of evian or kinso flip scum, the speed at which we should wagon the other one at should be sufficient to enter orbit

Uh what? If either one of them flipped town why should we wagon the other? Because that also implies that Kinso and Evian can't both be scum/town either and there is nothing there to suggest that they can't be in the same alignment.

I don't know how you misread what I said. If either of evian or kinso flip SCUM, then we should lynch (i.e. send to hell) the other one.

Evian's post on kinso is classic awkward scumbuddy interaction

Game 34: Purgatory

Oh I should put down a vote

vote bart

Game 34: Purgatory

Nothing before my incredible readslist is worth noting.

Bart: Asked for elaboration on my reads list, wordless unvote from a rvs thing
Pit: Voted kinso
Kaiser: Called me annoying
Yaichi: voted Bart for a bad reaction
Evian: Voted me for "forced contribution", Fos'd Kaiser. Lots of posts
Butch: Thinks I shut down discussion, questions evian
Kinso: asked me to explain my reads list

All right. Pit, Kinso, Yaichi, Kaiser all haven't said much so I'll leave them alone for now. This leaves Bart, Evian, and Butch.

Of these four, Bart is the easiest to slot. To me at least it's obvious that the reads list was a silly rvs thing. How can "Scum if Kathi is scum UNLESS Evian is the different alignment as Kinso in which case this is town:" be an actual category? Asking for elaboration is the easiest thing in the world to do as a fluff post, and the wordless unvote when he's the talk of the town is stuff of nightmares. No good.

Evian is an interesting slot. I guess I'll start by replying to his posts.

Evian W. wrote:Vote Taka T.

Firstly, there start. I'm not a big fan of it. Gave of random "lock"ed reads. This feels more like a forced contribution, more like "Hey I'm giving my reads early, I'm town for sure. You know that I'm town now!" I am not even sure from where did they bring that read. In the hindsight, I understand what they are doing, but I'm still up for this lynch.

Yeah I had the same reaction as Butch reading this, which is that you started the post off by voting me but seemed to talk yourself out of it by the end. What, you want me to convince you that what I did was good RVS? Every post of substance so far has been on my list, or been in reply to a post replying to my list. If it weren't for my post we'd still be listening to radio static.

Evian W. wrote:
Kaiser P. wrote:ok taka seems annoying he can go to hell

Not the best of the reactions. Similar to what Bart S. said, I personally believe that this is a not a very good slot here. FoS.

I kind of agree with you but at the same time I don't think I'll ever view a post that calls me annoying as a "good reaction" rofl

Evian W. wrote:
Kinso D. wrote:
Pit B. wrote:
Not sure if this sudden shift in reads was a reaction test or what, but alright.
Anyways:
Vote Kinso D.

Mind Explaining or is this just an RVS thing?

This dazzles my mind a bit. ...Honestly, there's a this part of my brain saying "THIS IS SCUM" while the other half is saying "THIS IS TOWN" since this actually makes no sense. I don't see why he would lynch you albeit RVS. But you asking for a reason... I don't know, really

hey just leaving this for posterity, if either of evian or kinso flip scum, the speed at which we should wagon the other one at should be sufficient to enter orbit

Evian W. wrote:
Butch C. wrote:
I missed this the first time i read this but first you give a surface level description of what he is doing and his possible motives which you thought was scummy. But then you talk about how in hindsight you know what his deeper intentions actually are. That would imply that you no longer believe the surface level motives are indeed true. So why are you still up for the lynch?

I am not sure if i am missing anything but i cant seem to find any post from bart which was similar to what you or kaiser said lol. What did you mean by that?

Firstly, it was the early game stages. A very slight single lynch push to give someone the edge to talk and give off something to get them be read further can be great for us all. In two words, disguised RVS. Thought the text which was written wasn't a lie, far from it, and has been address in few posts above.

Secondly, I'm surprised that you have the need to ask that. Not that I didn't see it coming (huh, the irony..), but well it's these two posts:
Bart S. wrote:How did you get these reads after maj of people have only confirmed. Can you elaborate on your town/scum locks.

Kaiser P. wrote:ok taka seems annoying he can go to hell

They are similar - addressing to a single person, address the same point, similar choice of words and/or reactions, etc

I'm having an awful time deciphering your posts and I don't understand your answer to butch. The way I am interpreting your answer to why you voted me (hey Butch) is that you wanted to start an early wagon regardless of your actual read on me (which is what I think you meant by disguised RVS)

Which is actually hilariously hypocritical. If you want to pressure someone with an early wagon, why the heck would you admit to your vote being primarily RVS before the person being wagoned (me) gets back and has a chance to defend himself? You learn a lot from listening to people's defenses, so for someone who seems so interested in hearing what people have to say, it's bleugh that you'd back off on my wagon before I got back.

Evian W. wrote:Therefore, a readlist which has been created as of now:

Bart S. - Scumlean
Butch C. - Neutral ; D1Lean
Evian W. - Definitely town
Kaiser P. - Scum
Kathi G. - Neutral
Kinso D. - Very Wavering Neutral
Pit B. - Neutral
Taka T. - Neutral
Yaichi H. - Scumlean

Oh for clarification, D1Lean is more of my own "townlean", but extremely slight, basically that they are someone I don't want to lose day one

I like people whose readslists match their votes.

On closer inspection after looking at this ISO, I don't dislike Evian as much as I thought I would. He tries to get a rvs wagon on me, which I'm fine with, I do shit like that all the time. I don't like that he called his vote on me RVS before I got back, activity prodding other players are mostly alignment neutral i think (scum especially have a field day activity prodding inactive villagers), I hated his response to Kinso. I will say that whatever my read on Evian today is, I will not be voting him. Given that half this playerbase is idling we should be hitting something in the pool of (Bart, Pit, Yaichi, Kathi, Kinso, Kaiser) holy shit this is a MASSIVE pool of inactives

Butch is next up on the list, and I think this is my town read for day 1. I guess I'll respond to his post first, same as Evian.

Butch C. wrote:
Taka T. wrote:Lock town:
Butch
Pit
Evian

Lean town:
Kathi
Kinso

Null:
Pit

Scum if Kathi is scum UNLESS Evian is the different alignment as Kinso in which case this is town:
Kaiser

Hard lock scum:
Bart

Discuss

At first I kinda liked this because it was quite an off the wall way to start day 1 which would generate a lot of discussion and reactions. However when bart said:
Bart S. wrote:How did you get these reads after maj of people have only confirmed. Can you elaborate on your town/scum locks.

which was a reply post that would naturally occur from your off the wall readlist, you just say:
Taka T. wrote:No.

completely shutting down that route of discussion. You explicitly told everyone in your original post to "discuss" yet it seems that you are inhibiting the discussion that you tried to start... Quite conflicting ideas no? This in turn gives me the impression that your original attempt of "discussion" was just for shows, sort of what Evian was on about.

I'm not going to pretend like my rvs post was actually serious and discuss it in a serious manner, that doesn't sound fun or productive to me. But I'm glad it provoked the discussion that it did!

Butch C. wrote:
I missed this the first time i read this but first you give a surface level description of what he is doing and his possible motives which you thought was scummy. But then you talk about how in hindsight you know what his deeper intentions actually are. That would imply that you no longer believe the surface level motives are indeed true. So why are you still up for the lynch?

Yeah honestly this shit is good, I townread people who think along the same lines I am and this is exactly what was going on in my head when I read Evian's post.

Butch C. wrote:

Evian W. wrote:
Secondly, I'm surprised that you have the need to ask that. Not that I didn't see it coming (huh, the irony..), but well it's these two posts:
Bart S. wrote:How did you get these reads after maj of people have only confirmed. Can you elaborate on your town/scum locks.

Kaiser P. wrote:ok taka seems annoying he can go to hell

They are similar - addressing to a single person, address the same point, similar choice of words and/or reactions, etc

I only asked because I wanna make sure I am understanding everyone's posts so that I can question them if I need to. Which is why I am glad I asked you about this because there's no way those 2 are similar despite addressing the same post. There is a clear distinction; Kaiser's posts seems to just disregard what Taka said and just called him "annoying" and wants him to go to hell (aka lynched), whereas Bart asked for elaboration. Therefore I dont see how you can FoS both Bart and Kaiser for similar reasons. You FoS Bart because he is asking for elaboration on what is clearly an off the wall attempt to gather reactions, which makes sense. But Kaiser gave a completely different reaction where he appears to have regarded it as some sort of RVS troll attempt. That being said, FoSing those two is completely reasonable since both reasons for doing so make sense. However personally I felt Bart's reaction was natural as Taka's choice of wording was "hard lock scum".

"You FoS Bart because he is asking for elaboration on what is clearly an off the wall attempt to gather reactions, which makes sense."
Wait you scumread me because I didn't respond to Bart's request, so why does it make sense to you that Bart's request is scummy? Huh? Please respond to this.

Butch is all right I guess. Honestly all of these posts by Butch and Evian look big but there's not actually a whole lot going on.

OK.

Deadline is in a day and nobody is posting so it's time to give out shitty reads for shitty reasons.

(Bart, Pit, Yaichi, Kathi, Kinso, Kaiser)

Bart is scummy in addition to what I said above because he was posting a lot before game started and now game has started and he's posting less.
Who is pit?
Yaichi is good because Bart did actually have a bad reaction
Kathi LITERALLY has not posted
Kinso took my RVS post seriously ("Okay how did you get that instant town read on me? This is interesting I only had 1 post and it was about me liking the theme") and it was very clear (I hope) that it was not serious so this can be lynchable as well
Kaiser called me annoying

I went back and looked at Pit's post and it was while we were still in RVS so nothing of substance I guess.

LYNCHABLES (like lunchables but worse) are grouped into two categories:
INACTIVES: Pit, Kathi
SLIGHTLY SCUMMY BUT HONESTLY AS SCUMMY AS ANYONE'S GOING TO GET WITH THIS ACTVITIY: Bart, Kaiser, Kinso

Let's talk, let's talk, let's talk.

Game 34: Purgatory

Pit is now lean scum.

Lock town:
Butch
Pit
Evian

Lean town:
Kathi
Kinso

Scum if Kathi is scum UNLESS Evian is the different alignment as Kinso in which case this is town:
Kaiser

Lean scum:
Pit

Hard lock scum:
Bart

Game 34: Purgatory

No.

Game 34: Purgatory

Lock town:
Butch
Pit
Evian

Lean town:
Kathi
Kinso

Null:
Pit

Scum if Kathi is scum UNLESS Evian is the different alignment as Kinso in which case this is town:
Kaiser

Hard lock scum:
Bart

Discuss

Game 34: Purgatory

ok