Game 31: Separated Scum

So, reads.

Wilkinson: The first Wilkinson acted weird and kind of scummy, but there's a new Wilkinson, perhaps he'll do better. Once he has made some posts I will make a new post with my adjusted read.

Roderick: He's basically the same as Wilkinson. So I'll deal with that in the same way. He has been online already, though I don't think you can expect someone to immediately get to posting their thoughts, at least he says he read the thread, so I'm expecting more from him soon.

Kodama: As we've all been looking back at his posts, I decided to do so again. Besides things we've brought up recently, he also starts with a readslist with mostly leaning town and neutral. There are two reads who are leaning scum. This in itself is not scummy at all, what is scummy, requires some context. Someone pointed this out and said it was scummy, Kodama then talked about how it was simply his playstyle. The next post after that, one IRL day later, he has a new readslist. This time with lots of leaning scum/scum. In fact, 50% of his reads are suddenly leaning scum/scum. Which seems to support the idea of him changing his reads to blend in. He does give an explanation later, but I still find it strange to see such a huge flip. He also has reads which are basically just the general reads of town. He also has not posted or been online in 5 days. So while all of the points before point to him being scum, he also isn't likely to defend himself. heavily leaning scum.

Rhonda: She said she'd do her best to be active. She said she'd do a readlist. Perhaps she did her best, but her best is not active, and her readlist is not here. She seems like someone who makes empty promises with the hope of postponing death until too many townies have died and scum wins. I could be wrong and she could simply be having a lot of trouble with finding the time. I still find her behaviour scummy though. Leaning scum.

Ed: Ed has been very active and doesn't act very scummy, though I do have to say that he has a tendency to say similar things that for example Maria had already pointed out a few hours earlier. I still think that he's more likely to be a towny who just sometimes feels the need to say something even though he doesn't know anything to say. Leaning town.

Maria: Maria has been trying to get the game in the right direction since day 1, trying to move away from RVS. She's remained active throughout the game and has always made good points and well thought-out posts. She explains herself when someone asks a question and generally just acts towny. I'm about 99% sure with my somewhat okay judgement that she's town.

That's everyone in the game, and yes the list does kind of go from scummy to towny, with two question marks at the top. I intended to do so, as by now I do have quite a clear view of who is scummy and who is towny in my head, except for Roderick and Wilkinson who are still a mystery.

As has been mentioned several times I have been too passive so far, so I will change that. My lynch might still change depending on what the subs, Kodama and Rhonda will do (I doubt Ed or Maria will do something to make me lynch them), but for now I will

Lynch Kodama

I'm currently having computer issues. I'll try to get through as much as I can currently.

I share Maria's disappointment in Roderick's lack of reads and pointing out the obvious. I'm even more frustrated that his only comment on the entirety of Days One and Two is that he "thought it was a lot." It's a lot that you can respond to and comment on, but there's not even an "I'll try to give reads" here. Like, if you're going to point out that mafia might change their reads based on inspects, can you look for examples of this? As for where this puts him in my readlist, he is above Rhonda, who I'm going to mention in a moment, but below Mona.

Mona: Part of this being anonymous is that we can't verify whether being passive is part of your playstyle. Even if this wasn't anonymous, I'd probably disregard that because of how easy it is to take advantage of one's meta. Rhonda is actually the main person I'd thought you'd been postponing on, but thank you for making a readlist. You mention in your that you could easily say with Wilkinson and Roderick that you're waiting to hear from their subs...which is exactly what you do in your readlist. Wanting to hear from the subs is a valid viewpoint, but if you had to give a read on Wilkinson and Roderick based on the first people to use their accounts, what would you say?

Maria: If people are in fact aware of the "follow the clear" issue (which they are now), I'd be fine with the Vig not ccing. Mona's followed up on her promise to make a readlist, and I look forward to seeing your thoughts on it. Rhonda, meanwhile, has not. Even after coming on again and seeing a lynch on her. This does not give me incentive to move off.

One thing about Mona's read on Kodama: She lynches lynches him and mentions that her lynch may change based on what he does, but is completely aware, as she mentions in her read on him, that he is unlikely to defend himself. This is in comparison to Rhonda, who we know is aware of what's going on but hasn't posted. Was there something that made you decide it was a bad idea to wait for Kodama to be prodded/subbed?

To put my last question another way, as I realize Kodama is your strongest scumread: Do you find Kodama not coming online at all to be scummier than Rhonda coming online and not reacting to anything?

I've got to be perfectly honest. I was sitting there periodically yesterday looking at the anon tab that I kept open on my browser dreading spending multiple hours making a readlist. I just don't feel the motivation to put together what I feel is simply a reanalysis of things already covered by other people. I think most of it comes from watching Maria and Ed breaking apart each and every bit of information with precision that I couldn't hope to match. Instead of sitting around and doing nothing, I'd rather at least respond to what other people are saying about me and at least try to contribute a little bit so I don't feel like an absolute burden on town.

Mona L. wrote:Rhonda: She said she'd do her best to be active. She said she'd do a readlist. Perhaps she did her best, but her best is not active, and her readlist is not here. She seems like someone who makes empty promises with the hope of postponing death until too many townies have died and scum wins. I could be wrong and she could simply be having a lot of trouble with finding the time. I still find her behaviour scummy though. Leaning scum.

The first half of this is absolutely dead on. I've been burdened by a lot of unnecessary problems that I have had to dedicate most of my time to, and when I get some free time it almost feels like a chore to read through everyone's posts again and try to figure out who is scummy and who isn't. However, I realize that people are waiting for my reads in order to properly assess the remaining players in the game and decide on their lynches for today, so I'll be on for the rest of the day to answer any questions people have and provide my thoughts on the other players.

Ed S. wrote:To put my last question another way, as I realize Kodama is your strongest scumread: Do you find Kodama not coming online at all to be scummier than Rhonda coming online and not reacting to anything?

I don't really know how to respond to this, except that @Ed I realize that this is a perfectly good reason to suspect me right now, and I know that it is not the only reason why you suspect me (which is why I'm ok with it as reasoning), and I will do my best to address these issues for you by the end of day 3.

I'm available now for anything. Ask me for opinions/reads on any person, interaction, scenario, anything, and I'll be happy to oblige. I'll also look through the last few pages of posts and look for anything i find interested that hasn't been completely dissected yet.

Firstly, if you were online while people were initially analyzing things you could have joined in. Even if this isn't the case, your own opinion would be helpful. I'd personally appreciate your reads on everyone currently, as you mentioned giving them.

As a sidenote, your last paragraph is very similar to the passive "ask me anything" I pointed out regarding Magnus Day Two, and Magnus's flip doesn't change my opinion on it.

Maria S. wrote:Rhonda is also a person imo that hasnt really been pushing. Giving a readlist and contributing doesnt mean pushing, in fact quite a few of her posts is her clarifying what other people mean which is effectively the opposite of pushing.

This post kind of threw me off the first time I read it. The issue with me not pushing has been brought upon entirely by myself. The main reason why I didn't push anyone once I started to post was that I honestly caught up to the point of being able to start questioning people about things that were happening at that point. My inactive spell recently has rendered me unable to push anyone since I've become sort of unwilling to delve into how everyone else has played this game so far. Of the people I've at least taken a deeper look at, there are two that stand out based on how they seem to make their reads: Kodama and Ed.

From what I know from playing these forum mafia games, there are pretty much two main ways to analyse how someone has played (aside from activity which can be controversial). People generally will analyse either statements or interactions. I see Kodama as a very statement oriented reader, which I think comes from reading through everyone's posts individually as opposed to rereading that part of the game. He tends to summarize what everyone has said throughout the game and define them as either townie or scummy based on how he reads the information presented to him.

Ed strikes me as someone who reads into interactions. He likes to look at the game as a whole, and try to tell who has said what to who, and try to determine whether that makes people seem townie or scummy as a result. This method tends to lead to theorizing about the importance of certain interactions compared to others and relies on a lot of theorizing, and it is also very time consuming in my experience. I feel that this is likely why I don't have the ambition to go through such a process, since Ed has looked into most of this game's crucial interactions already.

I know this isn't a normal or complete readlist, but these are the types of analyses that I like to make when looking at the game, as opposed to hunkering down in front of my computer for hours and poring through every line of every post to try to find a shred of evidence against x or y person.

Sorry that I’ve been inactive the past days, I’ve been quite busy with IRL stuff. I’ll try to respond to everything and contribute discussion in chronological order.

“Ed S.\" wrote:As I said above I am aware that your second readlist came after being able to read over everything, but it was still "around the middle of day one" when you posted your second readlist. What happened to it still being too early?

Not sure if you read my post (but you wanted me to “continue the unfinished discussion) about the shift, but I said in it that it wasn’t really in the middle of day 1 for me, since I had to go out after I posted my second readlist and when I got home, I’d be way too tired and I would sleep, and when I would wake up, deadline would’ve already passed.

Ed S. wrote:Regarding your read on Mr. Honcho, I agree that he is scummy but not for the reason you mention. You mention that he doesn't want to be seen as scummy-does this not apply to both town and scum?

My thought on this is that, scum would more so try more to be less scummy and would most likely won’t form their own opinions, and just keep on going with the majority. That’s what I saw in Mr. Honcho’s post regarding RVS being scummy/not scummy.
@Maria I was going to make this post earlier in response to your opinion of me misinterpreting what it meant, but then I ran out of time and then I forgot about it.

Responses are in bold.

Ed S. wrote:I can admit to being the person who asked AJ about the scumteam's wincon. I didn't bring it up in the hopes that scum hadn't realized it, and although it's been mentioned now I don't think we should go into detail with how (in case that hasn't been realized, granted it's somewhat easy to figure out). But I also got excited about being the active game, and Game 30 has surpassed us. At least people will be prodded. I will talk about this more in my upcoming reads post.

List of things I'm hoping to see: People's readlists, the promised posts from Mona and Rhonda, an answer from Kodama (Maria effectively summed up what I was going to say on the last page), virtually anything from Roderick, answers from Magnus, a number of other things I've been watching for but don't want to bring wifom into. I didn’t/don’t really get what you mean by the last sentence, could you please elaborate?

Maria brings up a good point with people sheeping the Mr. Honcho lynch, so to the people currently on him (Kodama and Magnus)-assume that Mr. Honcho is suddenly a confirmed Innocent Child. What do you do now? (Yes, I asked Kodama this with Mr. Cheeves and it was invalid, but in this case I think it holds more validity.) Also to Maria, how would you currently list the remaining four players you list in order of town>scum? Depending, on how close the deadline is, if it was still quite early in the day, I would most likely pressure Rodrick/Wilkinson to talk (but this is now irrelevant since they now have subs), in this current situation (the time you posted this post) I would probably pressure lynch Magnus for only posting 1 post on D2, and it was just sheeping the lynch and if it was nearly the end of the day, I would lynch my most strong scumread (which was Wilkinson).

Onto day 3.

The nightkill: For me, I think the most likely possibility is that the OS Vig’s shot went through and the CV got roleblocked, but the thing is, I think the Traitor RBer would most likely want to idle since if they do roleblock someone, they could rb one of their partners or the CV who could misshoot. Magnus was the type of person who scum would most likely shoot, since he was towny day 1 but more neutral day 2 and I think the OS Vig wouldn’t go for very towny players or too scummy either. I was going to pressure Magnus for dying out day 2, but he was pretty towny day 1.

Ed S. wrote:As far the Vigilante claiming goes, by the way: I don't think they should claim unless they are about to be lynched or they are counterclaiming someone else. The reason being that if we lynch scum today but the Vigilante has claimed, we are likely to go into another LyLo.

I partly agree with this post, I’d say that the CV should try and get the lynch off without claiming, unless it’s absolutely necessary. I also don’t think the CV should claim if CCing someone else, because the CV can just shoot their CC.

Rhonda R. wrote:I'll put together a full readlist either today or tomorrow at the latest, and I expect the same from Mona, Kodama, Roderick, and Wilkinson.

I will make a readlist later today, since soon I’m going out with my friends. (also waiting for yours. It will be easier to form an opinion on you, if I make mine after yours.)

Mona L. wrote:You say that advocating for a vigilante shot is the same sentiment, but while that's true, it's a very different action from lynching someone. Lynching someone means "This is the person I want dead and I am going to work towards making that happen" while suggesting them as a vig shot means "I'd suggest this person, though there are still other options. Good luck" At least that's what it means to me. Which is why I'd sooner suggest a vig shot than actually lynch someone.

I agree with the lynching part (except sometimes, it can just be pressure lynching), but the nomination for the vig shot part. I don’t agree with this at all. I like to think of nominating for the Vig shot is sort of like night lynching, but you prepare your votes during the day, but the CV is a Mayor that has all of the votes and the CV can choose to go with majority or whatever read they have/want to follow. btw, when you called me Komada in your next post, I associated it with Komodo Dragons.

Mona L. wrote:You are right, I am passive and nocommittal. It is something I should definitely work on, but I am also aware that I am not the best at wifom, and it's even harder to commit to something when you are as uncertain about something as I am about wifom.

This, to me is sort of like defeatism but not as much fully defeastism. It’s more so like, “Yes, I know about my weakness, it is something I ‘should’ work on.”
Tiredness: the tiredness was iffy to me, it could be a made up excuse but it’s something (like Maria said) cannot be proven/disproven and at least you’re here now!

Ed S. wrote:He claims he’s leaning scum on Roderick because Roderick came on and didn’t post anything, and during D2 this is apparently grounds for Roderick to be shot by the Vigilante. This contrasts with how he "didn’t want Rhonda to die” during D1 even though Rhonda was in essentially the same situation at that point that Roderick was D2.

Yes, I did nominate Roderick to be shot by the CV, but it was my SECOND nomination. The reason, I nominated him 2nd over everyone else is because all the other players were less scummy to me. In the Rhonda situation, she hadn’t posted anything at all (besides confirmation post), so I would’ve like to seen her post something at least.

Ed S. wrote:The next time these four are online I anticipate reads from them, otherwise I have few problems with them being lynched.

What happened to me being second nomination for being Vig shot? (which basically means to me, 3rd person in line to be lynched by you)

Roderick S. wrote:ok i read mostly everything from day 1 and 2, thought it was alot, im sure 1 mafia prob founded one of there unknown partners so i would be aware of that to see if there any change of reads or interaction during the past day as said it mylo/plyo

Now that you’ve read over everything, could you try to contribute to discussion or at least make a reads list?

Mona L. wrote:Kodama: As we've all been looking back at his posts, I decided to do so again. Besides things we've brought up recently, he also starts with a readslist with mostly leaning town and neutral. There are two reads who are leaning scum. This in itself is not scummy at all, what is scummy, requires some context. Someone pointed this out and said it was scummy, Kodama then talked about how it was simply his playstyle. The next post after that, one IRL day later, he has a new readslist. This time with lots of leaning scum/scum. In fact, 50% of his reads are suddenly leaning scum/scum. Which seems to support the idea of him changing his reads to blend in. He does give an explanation later, but I still find it strange to see such a huge flip. He also has reads which are basically just the general reads of town. He also has not posted or been online in 5 days. So while all of the points before point to him being scum, he also isn't likely to defend himself. heavily leaning scum.”

What made you shift from Leaning town in your first read list to “heavily” leaning scum now? You literally had not read and or mentioned me in many of your posts at all, so how could you get to a conclusion of “heavily leaning scum” so quickly? Is it because “As we’ve all been looking back at his posts”, meaning you want to ‘blend in’ and go with the majority? (or you thinking it’s the majority). If you said I’ve made an explanation, and you’ve still found my “shift” scummy, then are you implying that you didn’t read my explanation? Elaborate on my explanation being “strange”. I wasn’t really trying to “blend in”, since I had my own reads/reasonings and brought some points up that no one had before, so please explain how I was trying to “blend in”. I do admit that I was trying to blend in by lynching Mr. Cheeves in my first post, but then I actually got my head in the game and started doing things productive. Also, are you saying that you’re lynching me since I’m not likely to defend myself? Well, huh here I am defending myself. I would like to see you respond to this defense.

Follow the “clear”: To be honest, I don’t think people should ever follow the clear (unless it’s like a Cop or something), as it requires no thinking/skill at all and you’re just letting the “clear” do whatever they want. Even if there is a clear, everyone should still try and form their own reads/opinions towards people, and this also is why I don’t think the CV should claim when CCing.

Expect my reads later today (in about 5-6 hours, since timezones are different), when I have more time.

I'm assuming there's more coming from Rhonda, but I'll still ask: What conclusions do you draw regarding alignment based on your thoughts on playstyle?

Kodama: First off, I'm going to apologize in advance for formatting being a mess. My computer's currently not being friendly to my quoting sections of posts.

When I referred to the "unfinished discussion, I was referring more to what Maria asked during D2, as it was effectively the same thing I was wondering-in particular her comment on misinterpreting Mr. Honcho's comment and the difference between asking and pressuring. (I am aware that you have now acknowledged the misinterpretation section.) I interpreted Mr. Honcho's post differently, but I can see how one would come to your conclusion the way you rephrased it.

Night 1 I made a list of things I was watching for, many of which I "did not want to bring wifom into" by referring to them directly My computer, continuing today's assault has deleted it. Things I remember from it include whether Mona would push Wilkinson's lynch (she didn't and I've mentioned my problem with this), and people's reads on Wilkinson and Rhonda (especially since there was no real reason for them to change) and Wilkinson's read on you (as he'd lynched you without mentioning why d1).

What is your opinion on Rhonda currently, based on what she's posted so far?

Re: "What happened to me being your second nomination for Vig shot?" See my readlist. At the moment I don't think we should use the nomination process given the number of scum alive, but I've mentioned how my reads have shifted over the course of the day. The current order, for reference, is Maria>Kodama>Wilkinson>Mona>Roderick>Rhonda. I've moved Kodama above Wilkinson (who marks the neutral point) based on Kodama's last post, which continues to show an actual effort to both scumhunt and explain his motives. (This is as much as I can type currently due to the computer issue. I'm searching for another way to get online and plan to go into more detail with what I like about Kodama.)

A Wii U is not ideal, but here i am. I cannot quote.

While I still dislike the shift in Kodama's reads Day One, he has remained reasonably consistent without outright tunneling sjnce his second D1 readlist. What I really like is that he acknowkedges more than just what is directed at him. It's a far, [i]far[i], more tentative read than my read on Maria, but I definitely feel confident in placing him above Wilkinson.

Ed S. wrote:Firstly, if you were online while people were initially analyzing things you could have joined in. Even if this isn't the case, your own opinion would be helpful. I'd personally appreciate your reads on everyone currently, as you mentioned giving them.

As a sidenote, your last paragraph is very similar to the passive "ask me anything" I pointed out regarding Magnus Day Two, and Magnus's flip doesn't change my opinion on it.

I'm looking through posts right now and seeing if I can add any additional insight.  I'll provide a baseline of my current reads and can elaborate on specifics if necessary.

Roderick/Wilkinson: Holding off judgement on these two since they were just subbed in and neither of their predecessors said anything of substance.

Kodama: Touched on him in my last post.  Not going to cover the post he just made here since I havent read it thoroughly.  His game has pretty much been Read -> Act on Read -> Respond -> Repeat.  He's had a little bit of a back and forth with Ed but besides that he's simply been providing commentary on what has been happening in the game so far, which seems sketchy to me.

Maria:  She almost seems like the opposite of Kodama to me.  Pressure and discussion are the two things I pick up on from her playstyle.  She is right there with Ed reading into every possible situation and she also pushes for information from people that she sees as possibly scum.  However, since this game is set up in such a way that nobody knows anyone elses role (except for mafia learning up to two other people's roles at this point), mafia could also be scumhunting to find their own teammates which is causing me a lot of uncertainty in my reads.  Even with that taken into consideration, I don't think that the way Maria is playing would be conducive to a mafia memeber's wincon as she could very easily accidentally force one of her mafia partners to slip by pressuring them (however this point is moot if she somehow inspected both of her partners already, which seems unlikely but could technically be a possibility).

Ed:  I pick up a town leader vibe from Ed. Sure, there's the massive post count, and the fact that he has been mostly leading the discussion throughout the game, but I'm looking deeper than that.  Over the first two days, both of his end of day lynch targets have been lynched (as a matter of fact, both lynchees were lynched by Ed/Maria/Kodama/Magnus).  I have this insecurity about when I see someone's playstyle as very townie, as it almost seems like they're too perfect of a player to truly be a town playing that well.  This is especially true when town members continue to be lynched.  After noticing the fact about the two lynches being performed by the same 4 people, that in addition to the other concerns I have with town leaders (he led the last two lynches at the very least), this raises some serious suspicions towards Ed and the others.  Of course, all of this is being said without taking into consideration Ed's analyses and reads, but I still feel uncomfortable knowing that the last two lynches have been determined by the same 4 people, even though one of them did die a townie.  

Mona:  In terms of playstyle, she's sort of a Maria without any of the pressure.  Most of her posts are discussing certain aspects of the theme, and whether to do X or Y if Z happens.  Her reads have progressively gotten more detailed, which I guess makes sense considering there has been progressively more information to go off of (except Roderick and Wilkinson), and the reads themselves seem to have logical progression based on how the players have played throughout the game.

In terms of scum to town, I'd go:

(Kodama-scummy)>(Roderick/Wilkinson>Ed- neutral)>(Mona>Maria- not scummy)

I am no longer on a Wii U, though my ability to post remains sporadic. However, Rhonda has finally posted her readlist and something about it stands out to me.

Brace yourself for a theory of a scumteam pairing.

A Mona+Rhonda+??? scumteam was the theory in the back of my mind when I brought up the idea that Mona and Rhonda were waiting for a valid reason to defend someone (those someones being each other). Their readlists, in my opinion, support this: Mona mentions Rhonda as scum but uses old news from D1 to form a heavier scumread on Kodama, who she goes on to lynch despite mentioning he’s unlikely to defend himself. Rhonda has finally given us a readlist, and to me her read on Mona stands out because it’s a townread with very little reasoning behind it. To break down Rhonda’s read on Mona:

1. “In terms of playstyle, she's sort of a Maria without any of the pressure.” We’ve discussed this lack of pressure, and it’s not actually that townish. If it's just playstyle, as you believe, it's NAI as we can't verify it.
2. “Most of her posts are discussing certain aspects of the theme, and whether to do X or Y if Z happens.” Anyone can do this regardless of alignment.
3. “Her reads have progressively gotten more detailed, which I guess makes sense considering there has been progressively more information to go off of (except Roderick and Wilkinson), and the reads themselves seem to have logical progression based on how the players have played throughout the game.” This would be indicative of townish behavior, but I think Rhonda gives Mona too much credit here. The last time Mona made a full readlist was during Day One, so to say they’ve gotten progressively more detailed is to say “there’s more detail in her second readlist than in her first one because there have been two days on content in between.” Which is obvious and not indicative of alignment.

Other questions I have for Rhonda:

You mention regarding Kodama that you “touched on him in [your] last post.” Which you did do, but how is what you mentioned there alignment indicative? (I asked this earlier, but it may have gotten lost in format hell.)

Could you go into more detail with what differentiates your reads on myself and Maria that makes one neutral and the other town?

I think if this is in fact the scumteam, the third member of the group is one of Wilkinson/Roderick. Maria remains a townread of mine and for both of them to have Kodama as a top scumread would make him an unlikely partner.

I underestimated how long I would be out for and my internet crashed, my internet has crashed for whatecer reason and i cant type reads on a phone, sorry if you were looking for my reads today and hopefully my internet is up again in the morning

Mona L. wrote:

Thank you for explaining your lynch, though I would have answered regardless, and suggesting that the vig should kill me is kind of extreme if you want an explanation, if the vig had listened you wouldn't have gotten one.

I suggested Rhonda for the vig kill, I just said that it makes sense (at least more sense than a magnus shot) if the vig chose to shoot you. I even said in the same post that "I want to see a lot more effort coming from Mona if we ever get past day 2"

Rhonda R. wrote:

Maria S. wrote:Rhonda is also a person imo that hasnt really been pushing. Giving a readlist and contributing doesnt mean pushing, in fact quite a few of her posts is her clarifying what other people mean which is effectively the opposite of pushing.

This post kind of threw me off the first time I read it.  The issue with me not pushing has been brought upon entirely by myself.  The main reason why I didn't push anyone once I started to post was that I honestly caught up to the point of being able to start questioning people about things that were happening at that point.  My inactive spell recently has rendered me unable to push anyone since I've become sort of unwilling to delve into how everyone else has played this game so far.  Of the people I've at least taken a deeper look at, there are two that stand out based on how they seem to make their reads: Kodama and Ed.

From what I know from playing these forum mafia games, there are pretty much two main ways to analyse how someone has played (aside from activity which can be controversial).  People generally will analyse either statements or interactions.  I see Kodama as a very statement oriented reader, which I think comes from reading through everyone's posts individually as opposed to rereading that part of the game.  He tends to summarize what everyone has said throughout the game and define them as either townie or scummy based on how he reads the information presented to him.

Ed strikes me as someone who reads into interactions.  He likes to look at the game as a whole, and try to tell who has said what to who, and try to determine whether that makes people seem townie or scummy as a result.  This method tends to lead to theorizing about the importance of certain interactions compared to others and relies on a lot of theorizing, and it is also very time consuming in my experience.  I feel that this is likely why I don't have the ambition to go through such a process, since Ed has looked into most of this game's crucial interactions already.  

I know this isn't a normal or complete readlist, but these are the types of analyses that I like to make when looking at the game, as opposed to hunkering down in front of my computer for hours and poring through every line of every post to try to find a shred of evidence against x or y person.

I mean I am not denying that your analysis is sound, but I struggle to see your point. What does this analysis achieve?

Kodama N. wrote:

Mona L. wrote:Kodama: As we've all been looking back at his posts, I decided to do so again. Besides things we've brought up recently, he also starts with a readslist with mostly leaning town and neutral. There are two reads who are leaning scum. This in itself is not scummy at all, what is scummy, requires some context. Someone pointed this out and said it was scummy, Kodama then talked about how it was simply his playstyle. The next post after that, one IRL day later, he has a new readslist. This time with lots of leaning scum/scum. In fact, 50% of his reads are suddenly leaning scum/scum. Which seems to support the idea of him changing his reads to blend in. He does give an explanation later, but I still find it strange to see such a huge flip. He also has reads which are basically just the general reads of town. He also has not posted or been online in 5 days. So while all of the points before point to him being scum, he also isn't likely to defend himself. heavily leaning scum.”

What made you shift from Leaning town in your first read list to “heavily” leaning scum now? You literally had not read and or mentioned me in many of your posts at all, so how could you get to a conclusion of “heavily leaning scum” so quickly? Is it because “As we’ve all been looking back at his posts”, meaning you want to ‘blend in’ and go with the majority? (or you thinking it’s the majority). If you said I’ve made an explanation, and you’ve still found my “shift” scummy, then are you implying that you didn’t read my explanation? Elaborate on my explanation being “strange”. I wasn’t really trying to “blend in”, since I had my own reads/reasonings and brought some points up that no one had before, so please explain how I was trying to “blend in”. I do admit that I was trying to blend in by lynching Mr. Cheeves in my first post, but then I actually got my head in the game and started doing things productive. Also, are you saying that you’re lynching me since I’m not likely to defend myself? Well, huh here I am defending myself. I would like to see you respond to this defense.

The key thing here thats different in her situation is the fact you werent widely or highly regarded as scum and so its fairly clear that she wasnt blending in when she said you were heavily leaning scum. Rhonda on the other hand could be shown as blending in. Mona was also the first one iirc to actually point out your sudden change on your read on honcho which shows that she effectively started the "majority" rather than blending in. Speaking of which, you say that you saw how mr honcho wanted to go with majority and not form his own opinions which made you find him scummy. But you also said that you didnt read the wall posts the first time which means that in regards to Mr Honcho, the information you had before your first readlist and after your first readlist would have been exactly the same. Yet you went from "the topic was quite necessary to be brought up - leaning town" to "the only thing he ever brought up was the vig hardclaiming - scum" as if to say you gave him a lengthy amount of time to bring up another topic. But evidently the second readlist was only after one day of the first. If you truly saw the scumminess in his posts yourself and not because you read other (wall) posts and decided to form a spin-off opinion from it, you would have definitely seen it the first time. However this is not the case which shows a blatant attempt in blending in after reading the (wall) posts and seeing that your initial opinion on mr honcho wasnt shared with anyone else. I appreciate your honesty with regards to blending in with the mr cheeves lynch, but that begs the question, why wasnt your head in the game in the first place and had to be pressured to do so?

Rhonda R. wrote:

Ed:  I pick up a town leader vibe from Ed. Sure, there's the massive post count, and the fact that he has been mostly leading the discussion throughout the game, but I'm looking deeper than that.  Over the first two days, both of his end of day lynch targets have been lynched (as a matter of fact, both lynchees were lynched by Ed/Maria/Kodama/Magnus).  I have this insecurity about when I see someone's playstyle as very townie, as it almost seems like they're too perfect of a player to truly be a town playing that well.  This is especially true when town members continue to be lynched.  After noticing the fact about the two lynches being performed by the same 4 people, that in addition to the other concerns I have with town leaders (he led the last two lynches at the very least), this raises some serious suspicions towards Ed and the others.  Of course, all of this is being said without taking into consideration Ed's analyses and reads, but I still feel uncomfortable knowing that the last two lynches have been determined by the same 4 people, even though one of them did die a townie.  

In regards to the same 4 people lynching both days, on its own it looks suspicious. However if we bring in context it doesnt seem that suspicious. Early day 1 the reasoning for lynching Mr Cheeves was established and ed and magnus lynched him straight away while I lynched you because I wanted to pressure you to talk despite also believing that mr cheeves was the scummiest. Kodama admitted that he was trying to blend in. I then went back to lynching mr cheeves after successfully getting you to talk. Now only me and ed were active throughout day 2 and we made the decision to lynch mr honcho based on what he said when he finally posted. Kodama and magnus lynched mr honcho at the very start and just dropped off the face of the earth, magnus flipped town and Kodama says he was busy with IRL stuff so i guess we cant read too much into it. However when we look at the other players, no one else was even active and those who did post (like you and mona) didnt even lynch anyway (also applies for day 1). So it seems normal that those who are being lynched are being lynched by the same 4 people when bringing context into account.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kodama's reads when he is next online. I'd be interested in seeing Maria's current list as well as her thoughts on the Mona/Rhonda scumteam I proposed.

It's also worth noting, in my opinion, that of the three points I isolate in Rhonda's read on Mona, the third one is largely based on the difference between Mona's first and second readlists. This comparison would not have been possible without Mona's second readlist and supports the idea that Rhonda was waiting for something to defend with before making her read on Mona.

Ed S. wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing Kodama's reads when he is next online. I'd be interested in seeing Maria's current list as well as her thoughts on the Mona/Rhonda scumteam I proposed.

I'll post my list when I have a more solid idea on the order which for me should come clear as this day progresses. In terms of your scumteam proposal i dont have too much to say except for the fact that I dont really agree that mona going back to day 1 to give a reason against kodama means mona is buddying rhonda since there's nothing wrong with using info from any day to form a read as long as it's valid.

I don't think Mona's trying to buddy Rhonda so much as I think she's trying to chainsaw off of her. She doesn't acknowledge anything Kodama's posted past Day One aside from "he gives an explanation but it's still strange", which seems like an attempt to handwave the explanation away without directly responding to it.

Ed S. wrote:...

Mona: Part of this being anonymous is that we can't verify whether being passive is part of your playstyle. Even if this wasn't anonymous, I'd probably disregard that because of how easy it is to take advantage of one's meta. Rhonda is actually the main person I'd thought you'd been postponing on, but thank you for making a readlist. You mention in your that you could easily say with Wilkinson and Roderick that you're waiting to hear from their subs...which is exactly what you do in your readlist. Wanting to hear from the subs is a valid viewpoint, but if you had to give a read on Wilkinson and Roderick based on the first people to use their accounts, what would you say?

...

One thing about Mona's read on Kodama: She lynches lynches him and mentions that her lynch may change based on what he does, but is completely aware, as she mentions in her read on him, that he is unlikely to defend himself. This is in comparison to Rhonda, who we know is aware of what's going on but hasn't posted. Was there something that made you decide it was a bad idea to wait for Kodama to be prodded/subbed?

About Wilkinson and Roderick I would say that the first users of the accounts have both acted scummy, though I'm not sure whether that would actually make them scum. They have been subbed so they might have just been trying to do something when they had no time to do anything. Which is why I think we should focus on their subs more than the first players. They needed a sub so there was something going on at least. If I had to do something based on the first users of the account, I'd say roderick is more scummy than Wilkinson as Wilkinson seems to have just been trolling while Roderick was making legit posts, just with only one line.

Well just because someone hasn't come online doesn't mean they haven't read the thread, so it seemed to me that pressuring him might still have an effect, while Rhonda was already being pressured by Maria. If he were subbed then I might have changed the lynch, and besides I did mention that it could also change depending on Rhonda, Roderick or Wilkinson. So I thought that Kodama was the best option at least for now.

Kodama N. wrote:...

Mona L. wrote:You say that advocating for a vigilante shot is the same sentiment, but while that's true, it's a very different action from lynching someone. Lynching someone means "This is the person I want dead and I am going to work towards making that happen" while suggesting them as a vig shot means "I'd suggest this person, though there are still other options. Good luck" At least that's what it means to me. Which is why I'd sooner suggest a vig shot than actually lynch someone.

I agree with the lynching part (except sometimes, it can just be pressure lynching), but the nomination for the vig shot part. I don’t agree with this at all. I like to think of nominating for the Vig shot is sort of like night lynching, but you prepare your votes during the day, but the CV is a Mayor that has all of the votes and the CV can choose to go with majority or whatever read they have/want to follow. btw, when you called me Komada in your next post, I associated it with Komodo Dragons.

Mona L. wrote:You are right, I am passive and nocommittal. It is something I should definitely work on, but I am also aware that I am not the best at wifom, and it's even harder to commit to something when you are as uncertain about something as I am about wifom.

This, to me is sort of like defeatism but not as much fully defeastism. It’s more so like, “Yes, I know about my weakness, it is something I ‘should’ work on.”
Tiredness: the tiredness was iffy to me, it could be a made up excuse but it’s something (like Maria said) cannot be proven/disproven and at least you’re here now!

...

Mona L. wrote:Kodama: As we've all been looking back at his posts, I decided to do so again. Besides things we've brought up recently, he also starts with a readslist with mostly leaning town and neutral. There are two reads who are leaning scum. This in itself is not scummy at all, what is scummy, requires some context. Someone pointed this out and said it was scummy, Kodama then talked about how it was simply his playstyle. The next post after that, one IRL day later, he has a new readslist. This time with lots of leaning scum/scum. In fact, 50% of his reads are suddenly leaning scum/scum. Which seems to support the idea of him changing his reads to blend in. He does give an explanation later, but I still find it strange to see such a huge flip. He also has reads which are basically just the general reads of town. He also has not posted or been online in 5 days. So while all of the points before point to him being scum, he also isn't likely to defend himself. heavily leaning scum.”

What made you shift from Leaning town in your first read list to “heavily” leaning scum now? You literally had not read and or mentioned me in many of your posts at all, so how could you get to a conclusion of “heavily leaning scum” so quickly? Is it because “As we’ve all been looking back at his posts”, meaning you want to ‘blend in’ and go with the majority? (or you thinking it’s the majority). If you said I’ve made an explanation, and you’ve still found my “shift” scummy, then are you implying that you didn’t read my explanation? Elaborate on my explanation being “strange”. I wasn’t really trying to “blend in”, since I had my own reads/reasonings and brought some points up that no one had before, so please explain how I was trying to “blend in”. I do admit that I was trying to blend in by lynching Mr. Cheeves in my first post, but then I actually got my head in the game and started doing things productive. Also, are you saying that you’re lynching me since I’m not likely to defend myself? Well, huh here I am defending myself. I would like to see you respond to this defense.

...

1) So basically you agree that the CV could choose to do something else any time they wanted to. Meaning that a suggestion for a vig shot is just that, a suggestion.

2) I am not sure how this is defeatism? I am simply admitting the truth and saying I should work on it. And I did, I am less passive and noncommittal now. And like I said before, I would never lie about whether or not there's something going on IRL.

3) A lot of this has already been explained by Maria, such as your chronology being a tad bit off with me starting it rather than blending in with my scumread on you. I'm fairly certain though that if I say I still find something scummy after reading an explanation, that does not imply I did not read the explanation. I simply did not bother to elaborate. But I guess I will elaborate now.

So you do explain why your read on Honcho was scum in the second readlist and it makes sense as an explanation, though they're all reiterations of what people had already said.

The explanation I was talking about was when ed apparently asked you about your second readlist? Anyways, you say that a lot happened in the twelve hours and explain your playstyle I guess? I simply find that 12 hours in a forum game is not a lot to support such a shift in reads, as you seemed to mostly just not like how honcho was inactive, but it had only been 12 hours since your last read on him where he was still fine. 12 hours means someone could post, but doesn't have to. So your explanation did not convince me.

I did not say I was lynching you because you wouldn't defend yourself, I was lynching you because looking back I realized you have been acting very scummy this game. So I lynched you regardless of whether I expected you to defend yourself or not. It seemed a better option than Rhonda who already had plur on her if I remember correctly.

Ed S. wrote:I don't think Mona's trying to buddy Rhonda so much as I think she's trying to chainsaw off of her. She doesn't acknowledge anything Kodama's posted past Day One aside from "he gives an explanation but it's still strange", which seems like an attempt to handwave the explanation away without directly responding to it.

Honestly Ed, you can have fun with your scumteam theory, I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I was specifically looking back at what Kodama posted on day 1, and looking through his other posts (which weren't a lot by the way) I did not see anything to really justify him being town to me, it simply confirmed the idea that he was trying to blend in even more. And yeah I did not feel like elaborating on the explanation while making the readlist, I have elaborated above though.

Now I might have missed something so if there's anything else relating to me, please remind me.

I also need to mention that I tend to stay passive and noncommittal because as soon as I do decide to lynch someone I need to actively stop myself from getting a one-track mind and tunnelling on them. So I generally don't find it worth the effort, but in this case it might have made Kodama talk, or perhaps that was just timing.

Rhonda, I would like to ask you the same question Ed asked me, which is that if you had to make a read on Wilkinson and Roderick based on their first players, what would it be?

While I get feeling overwhelmed by the idea of reading through everything again, I find that looking at the posts specific people made helps a lot with that. Simply not doing something you promised is a lot worse than saying things that have been said before, as with readslist you summarize your thoughts. There won't have to be too much new things anyways.

I don't have any time to do more right now though as I have to go.

Mona:

This was the extent of Maria's pressure on Rhonda at the time you made your post:

It's possible that Kodama was seeing the thread and not logging in and commenting on it, yes. My point is that we knew this to be the case, for Rhonda, who didn't actually have that much pressure at the time of your post. There was my vote on her and only one comment from Maria:

Maria S. wrote:Whats up with Rhonda? She came on after ed lynched her yet she still didnt post anything. She even said that the readlist was "by the latest" coming out today! Mona also promised that she was gonna make a readlist today too.

I admit that Rhonda did have plur from my vote on her, but placing a vote on Kodama did little to pressure him because even if I unvoted Rhonda, Maria's vote for Roderick would still have precedence.

Roderick and Rhonda, by the way, have once again been online without responding to anything. Wilkinson hasn't and he may just have a cursed account.

Ed S. wrote:Mona:

This was the extent of Maria's pressure on Rhonda at the time you made your post:

It's possible that Kodama was seeing the thread and not logging in and commenting on it, yes. My point is that we knew this to be the case, for Rhonda, who didn't actually have that much pressure at the time of your post. There was my vote on her and only one comment from Maria:

Maria S. wrote:Whats up with Rhonda? She came on after ed lynched her yet she still didnt post anything. She even said that the readlist was "by the latest" coming out today! Mona also promised that she was gonna make a readlist today too.

I admit that Rhonda did have plur from my vote on her, but placing a vote on Kodama did little to pressure him because even if I unvoted Rhonda, Maria's vote for Roderick would still have precedence.

Roderick and Rhonda, by the way, have once again been online without responding to anything. Wilkinson hasn't and he may just have a cursed account.

Regardless of what mona was referring to, the stuff i said about rhonda at the end of day 2 still applies even if it was in the previous day. Also Wilkinson has been online after he was subbed in "Yesterday at 12:01 am" which would mean he would have seen all the posts up to my post which said:

Maria S. wrote:Err it should say "Ed, you say you dont want to continue the day treating a fake claimer as a confo town". Also in the first paragraph, I think it would have been better to include some more punctuation to make it easier to understand.

Therefore Wilkinson isnt off the hook either.

What you said about Rhonda still applies, but Mona lynching Kodama to pressure him makes little sense because it would take two unlynches for plurality to actually be on him.

I didn't mean to imply that Wilkinson was off the hook, Rhonda and Roderick just stood out to me because I saw them come online and do nothing while I was typing my post.

Roderick you say you've read the thread yet you decide to give us your sagely advice that we should look at behavioural changes when Mona and others have already gone and compared all the changes in reads between day 1, 2 and 3? I am sure you've also seen the countless number of times where people have asked for a readlist from you seeing as how you claim to have read the thread, yet you dont decide to do one? I mean i understand that you may not be able to explain what the previous roderick was thinking but not bothering to make a readlist after 2 (and a quarter) days of content and not say anything useful or new on top of that is unacceptable.

UL mona Lynch Roderick[/quote]

Well Yes im Just settling in to the game you expecting too much after i just came to the game im not a person who can sub into a game and post a fullblone reads list. i would rather Not be readed as because of the old roderick but as a new person if only i wasnt a sub i would be able to play better. you may see this as a excuse but you cant just read someone as mafia i have not bothered to make a reads list as i just subed in, its not like im refusing to make one.

Votecount 3.1
******************************
Rhonda R.(1)- Ed S.
Roderick S.(1)- Maria S.
Kodama N.(1)- Mona L.
Mona L.(0)-
Wilkinson A.(0)-
Maria S.(0)-
Ed S.(0)-
Not Voting(4)- Rhonda R., Roderick S., Wilkinson A., Kodama N.
******************************
There are 7 alive so it takes 4 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Monday the 10th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Rhonda R. would be lynched.

i am still processing my reads atm so if you want my reads list then you gonna have to wait a bit more as for now i am going to really be posting more on who i think is mafia since this could by plylo or mylo and i have a day and half left and acctually pushing for that if that is what i truly think of so you start seeing more of me anyways i would also like to be in more of the disccusion.