Re: Game 24: Near-Vanilla

by Charmaine U. Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:30 pm

fernando switching lynches faster than something fast

by Fernando T. Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:19 pm

....
I already said, I made a rl to get stuff going, then a stupidbw came out of nowhere

by Professor Icarus Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:36 pm

Honestly guys not seeing the benefits outweighing the risks here on the JK claiming. Understandable why some may feel it's a good decision but it's quite risky in itself and means that mafia will be able to meta around that themselves, and blatantly avoid that person until doc dies. It's not like that will make us a highly motivated unit having a JK, it's more than likely that someone would counterclaim it to be frank with you all. Having multiple leaders rather than a JK is much better in my eyes. Means we get more diverse opinions and people aren't sitting echoing the same ideas the JK decided to rattle off that day. Apologies if this is a somewhat controversial idea, but I cant see it being the most beneficial outcome for town right now.

by Ramona G. Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:06 pm

Hey, just had a chance to post now.

I am neutral on JK claiming. But as the game is going right now, I think there are more benefits to the JK not claiming rather than claiming. Some of these reasons are less wifom, more chance of successful protect (as doc wouldn't be on JK) etc.

As for Towa lynch, I don't think he is too particularly scummy. Bandwagoning on a random lynch is well "interesting", but I don't see a clear scum motive that really benefits them. Moreover, I think him asking VT is just to be like "Are you a power role so i can unlynch you". Yes, it might be a bit early to say something like that but I don't think he is scum. Just my personal opinion.

by Delilah H. Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:22 pm

Towa Q. wrote:FUCK. FUCK YOU AJ! Confirmed btw, BUT FUCK YOU!

Hey... I look ugly too. Join the party. Embrace your inner ugliness and drench it with 5 pounds of makeup!

by Delilah H. Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:23 pm

Mimi F. wrote:If JK claims, doc could protect JK, but if the JK jails the doc then it's rip JK. Not the most sound strategy.

sounds very follow the cop-esque tbh

by Brodie S. Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:46 pm

Delilah H. wrote:
Mimi F. wrote:If JK claims, doc could protect JK, but if the JK jails the doc then it's rip JK. Not the most sound strategy.

sounds very follow the cop-esque tbh

Do you have more to offer?

by Delilah H. Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:52 pm

Towa Q. wrote:1 doc, 1 jk, 3 maf, 8 VTs @Nanette B.

If we lynch Day 1, then we have a total of 4 misslynches, assuming maf makes a kill every night. This should be easy, all we have to do is lead a witch-hunt against a VT claim.

So, I'll start with the least QT user. Professor Icarus would you like to claim VT?

I'd love the ability to edit but I really can't rn. If that's your rationale for lynching people rn, this game is gonna be terrible in the long run.

~~Also if we are running on that standard than we should start with you~~

Towa Q. wrote:Doc can be on JK and JK can be on doc if need be. If you're not a VT though, then I don't want to waste a lynch on a town power role. If we're lynching a potential doc or JK, then yes, there is a point to claiming.

Actually... reading along further, I am starting to find you pretty scummy. For example, you brought up this major wifom. Do you see the problems in your statement there? Here I'll point them out for you.
1. "JK can be on doc": then the doc protect goes to waste, because the Jailkeeper will prevent the doc from protecting. Basic Jailkeeper 101- whoever he targets is blocked and protected. Which means one or the other is protected, not both.
2. Another big problem is the assumption that the mafia wont go around this and try to hit VT's (THERE is a LOT of wifom in your scenario) in order to avoid it.
3. The third assumption that is being made, which is even more wifom, is that the jk and doc know which one of them mafia will be hitting that night. one mistake and both go down.
4. Another problem I have here is the possibility of a mafia ccing the JK or doc, as is likely to happen in the events of or prior to the actual claim because it makes it harder for the kill to be secured properly which factors into the biggest problem i have
5. It requires BOTH the JK and the Doc to know who each other are. which means less chance of mafia messing up a kill

Natasha L. wrote:Hey guys.

I am just warning everyone in advance, there will probably be an in-game day or two in here when I will not be able to be talking in this game. Sorry. I will tell you when this happens.

Also, as for claiming in this setup. The "rules" for claiming in this setup are that if you are getting lynched and you are either doc or JK, claim. If someone claims doc or jk and you are the doc or JK, CC immediately. Getting one scum and losing a doc is almost always worth it.

These rules get a little mixed up during LYLO / MYLO because scum can easily CC doc or jk to get a town member lynched. Just be aware of this.

This is actually a good point to note and should be integral to keep in the back of our minds progressing later on in the game.

Nanette B. wrote:
Mimi F. wrote:If JK claims, doc could protect JK, but if the JK jails the doc then it's rip JK. Not the most sound strategy.
Well, scum Mafia won't know if JK hits doc, so there's a low chance that both the JK hits doc AND the scum hits JK.

refer to what I said earlier in response to Towa pls. danke

Brodie S. wrote:
Mimi F. wrote:If JK claims, doc could protect JK, but if the JK jails the doc then it's rip JK. Not the most sound strategy.
JK actually can safely claim in this setup, protected by the mere existence of a doctor, a situation so rare and habitually underutilized that I would caution us from immediately classifying it as "scary and very bad" and moving on.
Let's say there was a doctor who could protect herself. The obvious choice is to protect themselves each and every night unless there was for-sure, imminent threat to another less important person. She's more valuable, after all; she should do so for much the same reasons Presidents hide in fallout bunkers during terrorist attacks. So, this comes with the additional benefit of being able to claim, because no way Mafia is dumb enough to target someone who's just going to protect themselves. Of course, WIFOM alert, this makes for an incentive to shift her protect to someone else, just once to be naughty, and see if she can get away with it, because there's a very good chance Mafia doesn't target her that night, having suspected just that very thing. In the end, she and the Mafia replaying their own personal mind games, while the rest of the Town has a much-appreciated leader.
We are in a superlative position than this, even. The JK is guaranteed protection unless he accidentally hits the doctor. He cannot play the mind games himself, and so is protected from temptation. The doctor in this setup is likewise bridled, and less prone to carelessness, because it's Grand Master Leader whose life she holds in her hands rather than just herself, and that just feels particularly... weighty :/
If you think the doctor in scenario one should always self-protect (barring extraordinary circumstances), and I personally do, then the situation we are in comes with only a few differences.
PROS: 1) LEADERSHIP which is awesome so long as the person who's in charge is worthy of it. 2) Temptation for ill-fated trickery on behalf of the protecting roles is diminished greatly.
CONS: 1) When doctor dies, JK dies the night after. Though, in my opinion, better to have loved and lost... 2) JK might hit the doctor, also on the same night Mafia for some reason targets JK, which is incredibly unlikely, but worth mentioning. 3) We're down one protection every night from a possible two, so the possibility of a save is about sort of not really halved. But a successful save only gives us a NL day, and two saves are required for a ML...

Fernando T. wrote:that would be correct.
from what I see from this theme there isnt much that we could really do d1
Lynch Gurkinn N.
Don't randomlynch. It's lazy, and lazy people don't have much of a right to breathe.
(Same for you two fillers up there.)

Towa Q. wrote:If it feels good, do it.
Lynch Gurkinn N.

Are you a VT claim, or other?
1) Bandwagoning on a randomlynch is the most overtly nihilistic thing you could be doing at the moment. Congratulations(!), day one has barely begun, and I don't feel like I can trust you to pull your weight mid/late game now. Consider this a challenge to change my mind.
2) If there ever was an awful claim, it's VT. Literally everybody claims VT in this game except maybe the JK as I've discussed. If JK decides not to claim at all, which is perfectly understandable, then every VT claim makes the Mafia hitting JK slightly more likely. Of course, this holds true if and only if the JK does not claim anything at all themselves. So it's potentially harmful to demand VT claims, and at best useless.
3) Again, the only claim to can or should matter is whether the JK wants to out, which I personally recommend because it would make the game a bit more intriguing than mere Vanilla-where-maybe-a-kill-is-prevented-one-night-so-we-just-talk-and-NL-the-next-day.

To reiterate: JK should make the personal decision to claim if they feel the power of their leadership overwhelms the particular problems outlined above. If you are able and willing to serve in this manner, then the kingdom be thine.

Lynch Towa Q. for bandwagoning on a randomlynch which is baaaad and not at all inviting for good leadersheep.

To be honest random lynching isnt the worst thing in the world, as it does help formulate reads via reaction tests. But other than that minor disagreement I actually find a lot of your arguements to be compelling.

Towa wanted VT claims for us to lynch btw... To me I feel it is mafia trying to rule out the jk/doctor subtly. Does anyone else feel this?

Idk where my stance is on this debate of jk claim or not. I feel that it is a little too WIFOM for my tastes. I mean I wouldnt mind seeing a JK claim in the future... but I dont know if its the right moment rn.

Brodie S. wrote:
Annie F. wrote:Are we still talking about the asking people to claim VT thing? because no matter who you ask, they should be claiming VT. that's common sense.
What do you believe, and why do you believe it?
For a VT claim to have meaning, it must mean something. Literally everybody claims VT in this setup, except maybe JK or stupid early fake-claiming mafia.
If you're going to run a test, it has to differentiate between two different possible outcomes. Otherwise it's like saying "I painted the Christmas tree red, and it doesn't clash with the wall, so therefore we ought to legalize cyanide." Whether or not a red Christmas tree actually does or does not clash with the color of the wall has absolutely no bearing on the argument we actually care about.
Same thing with claiming VT. We have no new information, the test tells us nothing. "Annie claimed VT, so therefore she's...?"

Alright so as it stands, my current reads are
Brodie: Town
Natasha: Town
Annie: slight town but negligible tbh more null than not.
Nanette: Slight mafia but still close to null.
Towa: Scummy but I could see a bit of misunderstanding on her part... idk. for now i think a lynch on you is fine. You can never have too much pressure... unless hammer

Lynch towa

by Fernando T. Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:26 am

Yay. We are into long post phase.
I feel that JK shouldn't claim. It wastes the possibilty of doc saving a night kill, unless doc goes ultra wifom. Also if doc gets hit, then we are into vanilla.

by **ajhockeystar** Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:44 am

Votecount 1.2
******************************
Towa Q.(4)- Natasha L., Brodie S., Fernando T., Delilah H.
Gurkinn N.(1)- Towa Q.
Brodie S.(1)- Professor Icarus
Fernando T.(0)-
Nanette B.(0)-
Haruno H.(0)-
Delilah H.(0)-
Charmaine U.(0)-
Professor Icarus(0)-
Mimi F.(0)-
Annie F.(0)-
Natasha L.(0)-
Ramona G.(0)-
Not Voting(7)- Nanette B., Gurkinn N., Haruno H., Charmaine U., Mimi F., Annie F., Ramona G.
******************************
There are 13 alive so it takes 7 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Friday the 24th at 9am EST.

by Mimi F. Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:56 am

The amount of lynches on Towa already surprises me. Yes, she made a couple of logical errors in her reasoning on VT claims, but there really hasn't been anything said that warrants a hammered lynch this early in the day.

On the topic of JK claiming, it seems like are just too many variables that can go wrong. Brodie mentioned the game of wifom going on between the town PRs and the mafia and chalked it up as a positive, but that's only if the town wins the battle of wits. Also, without doctor claimed, the mafia could kill the doc, or the JK could target the doc and get targeted him/herself (unlikely), or the doctor could protect someone other than the JK and maf could kill JK (unlikely), or if the doctor DOES claim, he/she has to be jailed every night to be protected, which renders him/her useless.

To summarize: Towa shouldn't be lynched this early in the day, JK claim is a shaky if not bad idea, and claiming doc is not even a possibility.

by Delilah H. Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:04 pm

Fernando, that long post was only because of Brody's long post... that and this game has been hella active.

Mimi, we arent hammering Towa yet, she's only halfway there. I don't want a hammer too early either. Every minute we have is valuable discussion time. All I'm saying is that she's the scummiest person atm. This may change later on in the day.

I think JK should claim later on in the game, if I hadnt made that clear yet. Also JK dont immediately claim if a kill doesnt go through. there's doc, there's your protect, and then there's your rb. dont assume that the target is scum automatically... unless you are out and doc is dead.

by Brodie S. Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:20 pm

Just a word of advice to append with what Delilah said: doctor, if you suspect you saved someone, think very carefully if you want to soft, and do not do so stupidly. ...Really, this entire game rests on the respective intelligence of those two roles.

Mimi, answer me this: what is your opinion on Delilah?

by Brodie S. Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:22 pm

Also can we all agree we're only like a billion standard deviations of awesomeness above game 23?

by Annie F. Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:28 pm

Brodie S. wrote:
Annie F. wrote:Are we still talking about the asking people to claim VT thing? because no matter who you ask, they should be claiming VT. that's common sense.
What do you believe, and why do you believe it?
For a VT claim to have meaning, it must mean something. Literally everybody claims VT in this setup, except maybe JK or stupid early fake-claiming mafia.
If you're going to run a test, it has to differentiate between two different possible outcomes. Otherwise it's like saying "I painted the Christmas tree red, and it doesn't clash with the wall, so therefore we ought to legalize cyanide." Whether or not a red Christmas tree actually does or does not clash with the color of the wall has absolutely no bearing on the argument we actually care about.
Same thing with claiming VT. We have no new information, the test tells us nothing. "Annie claimed VT, so therefore she's...?"

I honestly don't get the point of this post, because to me it seems like you've basically taken my post and put an awfully long explainer after it so that even retarded people will understand my point. A simple "yeah you can't say anything about the claim if everyone claims VT" would have had the same meaning and less words. This just makes you look smarter, it makes you look more towny.

You have made some good points, but for some reason you feel the need to put awfully long explainers in it, which honestly doesn't make me very inclined to trust you, seeing as a reason to be doing this, again, could be because it makes you look more towny.

I'm not going to quote your huge post because it's huge, but I will respond to it. You, once again, give a huge explainer as to why you think JK should claim, but consider this: the doctor is actually more likely to stop protecting the JK for a cheeky wifom because it's not their OWN life on the line. To them it's actually not as bad if the JK dies as it would be if they themselves were to die. If they themselves die, that's it. It's game over for them, if the JK dies that sucks, but they're still in the game. They'll take more risks with other people's lives than with their own.

Of course you might be right and the doctor won't take risks, that depends on the kind of person they are. So if the JK wants to claim, they can, but they might still be risking their life, as the doctor might risk it for them.

by Mimi F. Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:43 pm

Aj, the link to Delilah H. in the alive list links to a search for just "delilah" with out the H. which makes it come up blank.

Delilah has made two posts, one of which compares the JK claim doc protect idea to follow the cop, and another which I'll go into a bit more detail with.

Comparing the JK claim idea to follow the cop is sort of right except for the fact that follow the cop is much more effective. The cop gets almost guaranteed results while the JK can never be sure if their jailing of X person caused them not to kill or protected them from dying or neither.

Her other post responds to my observation on Towa's lynch count and states her opinion on the JK claiming discussion.

Nothing out of the ordinary either way, null read.

Brodie, what's your opinion on Annie right now?

by Delilah H. Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:06 pm

Actually Mimi, I posted 3 content-filled posts. Or did you miss the long post in between the two you mentioned?

Mfw game 23 is pure shitposting and lolicons and shoutacons. So I think it's safe to say that we are having a better D1 discussion than them rn. Then again none of us have particularly "scummy" avatars... that I noticed.

I'd like to see a bit more activity and discussion from everyone btw.

by Mimi F. Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:47 pm

Ah, I missed that one. Honestly no idea how, considering it takes up half of this page. Your thoughts stay about the same through that post as well, it doesn't change my read at all.

by Natasha L. Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:49 pm

Aj, Haruno has only talked once this game, which was the confirm his role. You may want to sub him.

Two others that I believe are slightly scummy:

Professor Icarus for lynching Brodie because "why not" with no particular other reason. This is slight, mind you ^^

Also, Fernando for denouncing claiming VT for the wrong reason, and jumping on the Towa lynch immediately. Also reading people because they are "not sure why." Could be scum; could also be a bad town.

Reminder to everyone: you need reasons for everything.

by Natasha L. Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:51 pm

Also I agree with Annie on the "putting very long explainers next to a simple point does not make us trust you" point.

by Haruno H. Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:21 pm

No need for sub i am here sry for inactivity

by Brodie S. Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:11 pm

Annie F. wrote:I honestly don't get the point of this post, because to me it seems like you've basically taken my post and put an awfully long explainer after it so that even retarded people will understand my point. A simple "yeah you can't say anything about the claim if everyone claims VT" would have had the same meaning and less words. This just makes you look smarter, it makes you look more towny.

Whups. I misread your post; I thought you were advocating for a mass vanilla claim, saying that there was no reason for us all, collectively, not to allow for the claiming to occur.

Annie F. wrote:You have made some good points, but for some reason you feel the need to put awfully long explainers in it, which honestly doesn't make me very inclined to trust you, seeing as a reason to be doing this, again, could be because it makes you look more towny.

Just how I talk.

Annie F. wrote:I'm not going to quote your huge post because it's huge, but I will respond to it. You, once again, give a huge explainer as to why you think JK should claim, but consider this: the doctor is actually more likely to stop protecting the JK for a cheeky wifom because it's not their OWN life on the line. To them it's actually not as bad if the JK dies as it would be if they themselves were to die. If they themselves die, that's it. It's game over for them, if the JK dies that sucks, but they're still in the game. They'll take more risks with other people's lives than with their own.

I... See. I didn't anticipate that before, because the thought that doctor would have any reason not to protect JK seemed dumb, so I didn't think about it. Fallacious empathy. Just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean nobody else wouldn't.
In that case, because even if one PR dies, the other can still live... Yeah, I see that point. I was weighing the benefits of authority and increased surety if a protect is nabbed (doctor saves being distinguishable from a maybe save/maybe role block)---over the likelihood of a save occurring in the first place plus avoiding the power role domino effect. That's evidence that I did not previously consider, so now, after re-updating my beliefs...
I am convinced that JK claiming is probably a very bad idea unless they are absurdly stupendously capable of leadership, well above the threshold I previously demanded of them.

by Brodie S. Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:37 pm

Mimi F. wrote:Brodie, what's your opinion on Annie right now?

At the moment, very town, because she changed my mind on something that I was doing that could have potentially hurt town a great deal. Of course, it could be contrarian scum just trying to make me look bad while making them look goo, that is their job after all, but mine was a particularly volatile idea that could have handicapped town going forth. The ultimate outcome of that interaction was beneficial to town (at least while looking at the world from my current post-Annie pre-TheFuture belief set), which suggests sincere town intent.

by Haruno H. Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:35 pm

Charmaine who do you think is scum

by Delilah H. Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:40 am

Haruno, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the JK claim debate we are having rn as well as your thoughts on the Towa lynch. I mean all you've said so far has been one liners.

Brodie do me and the rest of us a favor and refrain from overly complex words. I dont like having to stop reading in order to look up the definition of a word when I play a game of mafia. Not everyone is studying the SAT word of the day, sweetie. Of course every once in a while is fine, but dont riddle your posts with them. It's not to much of a problem now, but I'm worried it will become one. Referring back to what Annie said earlier, it doesn't make you seem smarter or any more townie. Tbh it could make you seem too pompous for your own good.Plus I feel that if a post is chopped full of advanced vocab, it might be a little more distracting for the whole point to come across.

At least you realized that JK claiming isnt the best of actions rn. Although I still think the JK should claim sometime in the future, pre MYLO

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