Game 33: Purgatory

Howie's vote was too late, so it wasn't counted.

Votecount 1.4
******************************
Autumn F.(2)- Isis A., Galea R.
Isis A.(2)- Madam Muchmoney, Pete S.
Rory M.(1)- Howie M.
Master Fisherman(1)- Rory M.
Madam Muchmoney(0)-
Howie M.(0)-
Charlene W.(0)-
Galea R.(0)-
Pete S.(0)-
Not Voting(3)- Autumn F., Charlene W., Master Fisherman
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There are 9 alive so it takes 5 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Friday the 13th at 9pm EST.

Autumn F. was lynched.

she was the...:

Heaven Phase 1 Commence! Deadline is the 18th at 9pm EST.

Charlene W. has been subbed out. A new user is now using the account.

oopsies i forgot about this. Atleast ill be seeing some of u in hell

Hi guys! So I just subbed in for Charlene and read everything, and I think so far I/former Charlene only made one post? It's pretty late so I'm not going to go super indepth right now and I'll definitely read everything again when I'm not exhausted tomorrow. I really just wanted to let you know that I'll try my hardest to be a better Charlene than the other one from now on.

Au revoir, Autumn my love...I'll avenge you!!

...um...hey Charlene, how's it goin'? You know...I'm very rich. Anyway, it'd be hard to not be a better Charlene than the other, so I look forward to your posts. As for me, I may have forgotten that the game was nightless, but I'm going to start by using the time I have to go through yesterday's posts.

So first Master Fisherman. He seemed really excited about the game, then went inactive, but so did a lot of other people. But then he apparently forgot about the game and went inactive again after re-establishing how excited he was. Other than that, he doesn't seem to be paying much attention to the game (he didn't even realize who Howie was and his reads seem to be based on a quick skim) and because of that the main thing I want is his current reads after a second, more in-depth look at the game. Also, how are you?

Rory M. made a post at the end of Day 1 which I like. He addressed everything that had been brought up and that stood out to him up to that point, and he was also one of the first people to give a concrete set of reads ("This person is townie, this person is scummy") and I find that scum tend to want to procrastinate on giving opinions for as long as possible, so I like that he got right down to business with that. The only question I have right now is this: you mentioned finding it weird that Master Fisherman didn't comment on Autumn, but your own only comment on Autumn was that she didn't have any non-filler posts. What were you expecting from Master Fisherman?

I'm going through and starting with those who have fewer posts and working my way up, so I should be able to be online for a while.

Oh, also how are you Rory?

Pete S. is an interesting slot because he doesn't really have that much currently I think. There are 7 posts, which while they are all related to scumhunting in some way I don't know what the conclusion was he drew from them. He has the whole RVS deal with me and unvoted me in favor of Isis, but he had no comment on Isis prior to his vote and the only other player he commented on was Autumn. What do you think of some of the other players with content (Galea, Howie, and Rory for example)? I think in terms of a read Pete is overall a slight scumlean just because he hasn't given that many conclusions/decisive reads even though he looks like one of those "serious players" who tries to use everything and anything they can for scumhunting purposes. How are you today, by the way?

Howie M.'s posts feel like they're coming from town because, as Rory said, he was analyzing specific players instead of focusing on broad concepts. While Pete was definitely scrutinizing also, he seemed overly focused on one player (myself). I also think his comment on "more people need to get in here and RVS" was a genuine attempt to get the game moving despite being misguided. How are you? Also what are your reads on some of the other players who have talked, since basically everyone but Charlene/Isis has something now?

So that just leaves Galea, since Isis and Charlene don't have much in the way of content. (For what it's worth my thoughts on Isis remain the same, but they're not as strong when I go through now comparing her to others.) I had a townread on Galea day one just due to her being one of the more active players, but I'm starting to reconsider because looking over her posts, I can easily see what Rory means. To summarize, Galea proposed a strategy of sending people we think are town with bad reads to heaven, but when myself and Howie mentioned a problem with it she was pretty quick to relent. A lot of her posts are also very general/broad, pretty much everything is something along the lines of "here's how the thing I'm talking about connects to the way we should play the game" but there's not a lot of scumhunting. There are no reads on anyone, the closest thing there is is the comment on Master Fisherman but then that just turns into a "we can talk about stuff like that down the line but right now it's too early." What are your reads, and why did you change your mind so quickly when Howie and I brought up an issue with your original plan?

Also, how are you?

Starting off Vote Pete

It'll be explained. Read the post!

Madam Muchmoney wrote:Anita was something of an...anomaly, but I understand your thought process.

@Howie can you talk to me some about your Master Fisherman read? You say we're all town but then have a scumlean on Master Fisherman, and then you lynch Rory instead. I guess I just don't understand the train of thought here.

Anita wasn't an anomaly, she was an inexperienced / bad player. That's the point of a lot of these ubiquitous strategies; they're not going to work on experienced players 99% of the time, but there's very little harm in trying them and they're a fine way to start things off.

Howie's lynch was explained when he said that he didn't want to lynch any actives at the moment. Rory was inactive and thus the lynch.

Rory M. wrote:
Galea: I like her posts and I think she suggests good ideas, but I don't think she really thought her analysis through. For example, I like that she brings up the point that maybe we shouldn't send the towniest player to heaven, but she suggests sending people with terrible reads to heaven instead - even though the people sent to heaven could still impact the game. To me, it gives an impression that she is wanting to appear as townie as possible by suggesting strategies, but did not give her ideas much thought. This seems slightly scummy to me as it seems she just wants to appear townie, but not pushing her thoughts all the way through. In the end, she just agrees with the "yeah we'll do it later in the game" which to me seems like she didn't intend for the strategy to be used in the first place. This quote of hers:

" What do you think of the strategy I proposed (take note of Howie & MM's suggestions, e.g. using the system later and not sending a completely suboptimal choice over a good one as well)"

also seems to be that she is trying to become a town leader, which I think is scary. Now, I know she might just be trying to start a discussion which I understand and respect, but there is something about her play style that is scummy to me. She is currently scummy to me, but it is too early to call. I just want to type this out as an idea and see if you guys agree/disagree with me.

You seem to be ignoring the whole point of the strategy in the first place - keeping the players who are having the most positive impact on the town in the game as long as possible. I only realized this now, but keeping these players will also lead to a likely easy out in these LYLO situations, since they can be sent to heaven should it be necessary.
The rest of your post just seems like projecting and/or reaching to me. Not sure why you interpret "we can do it later" as "I have no faith in this strategy and never did". Not having a fully fleshed out idea is neither scummy nor townie as well, the whole point of me bringing that up was to start actual discussion - which it did.
On being a town leader, maybe that's what I was doing unintentionally, but what I wanted to give other people an easy way to start participating - and getting in on current topics of conversation is the best way to do that. There's nothing wrong with a town leader, regardless. The issue comes with people who don't question the town leader at all and/or let them dictate what should be talked about. Fearing any and all town leaders is just silly.

Madam Muchmoney wrote: What are your reads, and why did you change your mind so quickly when Howie and I brought up an issue with your original plan?

I addressed most of the stuff you talked about previously.
For changing my mind, you and Howie both brought up good reasons that the strategy doesn't really work as I thought it could right now. Just because I think of an idea doesn't mean that I believe that we automatically have to follow it; if people bring up valid reasons that my idea isn't a good one, i'm willing to accept that.

For reads, i've got Pete in town, Howie and you in townie, Rory + Charlene + Isis in neutral, and fisherman in scummy.
I like Pete's thought process, his willingness to question the people who are active (atm just MM, but still), and how he doesn't add anything extra to his posts to make it seem like there's more than it really is. By that, I mean his posts are very concise and there isn't an excess of filler.

For both you and Howie, I like how you were immediately willing to shoot my idea down and provide good reasoning (not just saying "I don't like it" or something along those lines). You've also been pretty consistent in posting and not too much has pinged me as being sus. There have been some things, though. You buddied Autumn VERY HARD, and I don't like that. Howie's frustration at the game's slow pace seemed off to me; it felt similar to the "complaining mafia" that talks about the game being inactive but doesn't do anything about that. I say that, but Howie did bring some solid content along with the complaints, so the issues I have with him are fairly weak.

Rory has only had the readslist, and to me it just felt like a lot of fluff. He went after the easy scum target and hedged a ton. That's his only post so far, though, and i'm not willing to assign him to the scum pile just for that.

Charlene and Isis haven't posted anything.

Fisherman's few posts were pretty sketchy; talking about RVs posts as filler is just a weird thing to fixate on, he completely ignored the current topic of conversation, and managed to forget about the existence of howie despite his presence in the actual discussion portion of the game. His posts were effectively low-effort low-utility posts that could seem useful but really weren't.

Great to see game activity picking up, and now we have a dliemna to solve.

Ideally we would send a townie to heaven, but we can't exactly send our most active townies because activity is a precious resource at this point of the game.

Vote Pete

Extension of the gut-TR I had on them yesterday, also Galea agrees with me so

With all the Day 1 Analysis other players have already put out, I don't have anything to really add since I kinda said it as I went along yesterday, but I'd like the other players to come in and provide their thoughts on the situation right now, especially since certain players have a lot said about them currently (lookin' at you Master Fisherman)

Worth discussing this now too: MF seems to be in most people's scumpool, and would be a likely lynch should nothing change. If he doesn't show by the end of tomorrow, do we lynch him or give him a chance to talk before doing so?
I personally think that assuming nobody else ends up being scummier by then, i'd want to lynch him, regardless of him showing up.

Please note that i'm not going to condone lurking or inactivity so if any of you think this is a free ticket to do nothing you can go to hell! (hehe)

howie how do you feel about the readslists that have been posted thus far? do you agree with my accusations of your complain-iness, MM's buddying, and rory's fluff? Do you agree with any of the cases against me? aside from a gutread on pete, what do you think about him & his posts?
I already know about how you feel RE: MF.

Votecount 2.1
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Pete S.(2)- Galea R., Howie M.
Isis A.(0)-
Rory M.(0)-
Master Fisherman(0)-
Madam Muchmoney(0)-
Howie M.(0)-
Charlene W.(0)-
Galea R.(0)-
Not Voting(6)- Charlene W., Master Fisherman, Isis A., Madam Muchmoney, Rory M., Pete S.
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There are 8 alive so it takes 5 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Wednesday the 18th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Pete S. would be lynched.

I wouldn’t really call OM Room “inexperienced” or a “bad player” but okay I guess. My question to Howie is more about how he was like “everyone’s town” but then had at least two scumreads by the end of day 1.

I’m also not in agreement with sending Pete to heaven currently. I mentioned my read on him earlier and in my opinion the reasons Galea mentioned for him being Town are null-tells. The willingness to question is less credible when considering he’s only focused on one person so far, and both scum and town can be considered in their posts-it’s more specific to playstyle than alignment. Galea did mention liking his thought-process so I’m open to hearing about that some more.

I propose that we instead vote Howie. I understand that you disagree with my townread on Rory, so Howie seems like an option we (as a whole town, not just you and me) can come to an agreement on sending to heaven.

One thing I want to bring up with your read on me is the comment on buddying Autumn. It’s reminds me of a comment on the Mafiascum page for buddying itself: “More recently, though, this has become used as a pre-emptive accusation against anyone who acts nicely toward another player, regardless of intent.” What I’m saying is that I loved Autumn with all my heart not necessarily every incident of someone being nice is scum attempting to buddy.

Incidentally it was Autumn who made the first friendly comment, although you didn’t acknowledge that when voting her or at any point before. I guess another question I didn’t ask earlier is “why is this?”

I’m also in disagreement with your comment that Rory hedged a ton. In fact one of the things I liked about his posts were the lack of hedging, so what stood out to you as hedging?

You’re also saying he went after the easy scum target (I assume you mean Master Fisherman since that’s who he voted) but then you’re also scumreading Master Fisherman and proposing a lynch on him tomorrow.

@Howie, after the seemingly mass d1 prod and Charlene sub, I don’t think we’ll have to worry too much about who’s active when it comes to who we send to heaven. At the very least I don’t think we should base all of our voting decisions on activity. I still wouldn’t mind your own reads even if others have given theirs, as there are disagreements on some players and it would be helpful to know where you stand.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:I wouldn’t really call OM Room “inexperienced” or a “bad player” but okay I guess.  

Forum mafia and RTM are two different things.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:
I’m also not in agreement with sending Pete to heaven currently. I mentioned my read on him earlier and in my opinion the reasons Galea mentioned for him being Town are null-tells. The willingness to question is less credible when considering he’s only focused on one person so far, and both scum and town can be considered in their posts-it’s more specific to playstyle than alignment. Galea did mention liking his thought-process so I’m open to hearing about that some more.

By his thought process I just mean the way he laid out his thoughts and explained himself.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:
I propose that we instead vote Howie. I understand that you disagree with my townread on Rory, so Howie seems like an option we (as a whole town, not just you and me) can come to an agreement on sending to heaven.

Maybe in the future, but I feel pretty good about Pete right now. You'd have to convince me that Pete isn't townie for me to vote Howie here.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:
One thing I want to bring up with your read on me is the comment on buddying Autumn. It’s reminds me of a comment on the Mafiascum page for buddying itself: “More recently, though, this has become used as a pre-emptive accusation against anyone who acts nicely toward another player, regardless of intent.” What I’m saying is that I loved Autumn with all my heart not necessarily every incident of someone being nice is scum attempting to buddy.

Incidentally it was Autumn who made the first friendly comment, although you didn’t acknowledge that when voting her or at any point before. I guess another question I didn’t ask earlier is “why is this?”

The first part's a fair defense, but to me it felt like you were forcing the connection a lot more. My reasoning for voting Autumn was solely for her showing up and saying nothing, plus i'd say that what she did falls into the thing you quoted above and isn't really buddying.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:I’m also in disagreement with your comment that Rory hedged a ton. In fact one of the things I liked about his posts were the lack of hedging, so what stood out to you as hedging?

You’re also saying he went after the easy scum target (I assume you mean Master Fisherman since that’s who he voted) but then you’re also scumreading Master Fisherman and proposing a lynch on him tomorrow.

Hedging:

Rory M. wrote:
Now, I know she might just be trying to start a discussion which I understand and respect, but there is something about her play style that is scummy to me. She is currently scummy to me, but it is too early to call. I just want to type this out as an idea and see if you guys agree/disagree with me.

These reads aren't the best (fine, @Howie) and maybe too over reliant on how I think the scum usually play, but it is my thought on the game at the moment. I want to know what you guys think about it.

I was wrong about him hedging a ton. It's definitely present, though.

At the second point, I meant that the only thing he did was go after the easy scum target. I would've liked some kinda pressure vote on someone else. I do now realize that it was close to deadline, though, so I won't hold it against him anymore. I do want to see him post more, since I don't have enough to get a feel on him yet.

Master Fisherman: Last visit : Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:00 pm
Pete: Last visit : Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:45 pm
Rory: Last visit : Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:00 pm
Charlene: Last visit : Today at 4:07 am
Isis: Last visit : Today at 4:24 am

AJ, please get a sub for Master Fisherman.

Charlene & Isis, I see you lurking. Talk. There's a ton of things to talk about even ASIDE from who we send to heaven.
Do you think we use a convoluted strategy later on down the road or do we just continually send the person we think is the towniest?
Do you think MF is scummy or not?
There have been slight accusations or cases against every single active player (aside from Pete I suppose). What do you think of those?
Do you have any reads on players right now? Anyone you think is scummy? If so, why?

you don't have to talk about any of these if you don't want to, just post SOMETHING. the game is reverting back to where the trio of me, MM, and Howie are the only ones talking, and I don't like that.

It's irritating to keep checking this game and seeing that theres NOTHING NEW, especially when I know that some of you are here. Come! On!

Also Howie i'm not really a fan of you ignoring the readslists up till this point and only coming on to put a vote that you effectively justify with two things: 1) being a gut-TR and 2) me agreeing with you.
It basically disconnects any decision-making on your end with the vote, and I really really don't like that.
The last paragraph of your post is pretty much filler too, and you're asking people to talk about things that you haven't even talked about.

Howie M. wrote:lowkey feeling scumvibes off Master Fisherman, the things he chose to focus on, namely some RVS BS, seems like such a trivial thing when viewed in the grand scheme of things.

I'm usually an advocator for Quality > Quantity but at this point of the game, most forms of analysis is bound to be at best absolute trash and at worst scummy filler, we should be pushing for quantity now, since we kinda obviously have a big issue with that and quality doesn't really matter if there's no quantity (kinda like how anything multiplied by 0 is 0, if we have none of either we're fucked).

To clarify, the reason I disliked Master Fisherman's post is because it just seems like the kind of thing you'd post in RVS for that postcount, the content is deceivingly minimal for what seems to be game-related talk, "This is RVS filler, it could be normal RVS filler or it could be RVS filler with a meaning" is how I read his post and I think anyone can see an issue with that.

I'm gonna leave that aside for now though since I'm probably going to start pushing on a lurker because god damn we can't have 5 people in a 13-player game active.

Pete's entrance seems town tone-wise but that's negligible currently because we're all basically town until people start talking.

I want stuff like this. please?

Sorry Sorry, IRL is a dick at times

Galea R. wrote:howie how do you feel about the readslists that have been posted thus far? do you agree with my accusations of your complain-iness, MM's buddying, and rory's fluff? Do you agree with any of the cases against me? aside from a gutread on pete, what do you think about him & his posts?
I already know about how you feel RE: MF.

Yeah well I'm a complain-y person I don't think that's a negative trait. I like to think of it as me wanting more

I wouldn't say MM was buddying, I'd just call it pregame/earlygame meming because you know, why not.

Rory's fluff doesn't really stand out to me, I'm not the kind of guy to nitpick filler if there's content. Filler displeases me only when it's trying to be portrayed as actual content.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:@Howie, after the seemingly mass d1 prod and Charlene sub, I don’t think we’ll have to worry too much about who’s active when it comes to who we send to heaven. At the very least I don’t think we should base all of our voting decisions on activity. I still wouldn’t mind your own reads even if others have given theirs, as there are disagreements on some players and it would be helpful to know where you stand.

Well on the current players who have done enough to get a read on, I think obviously you and Galea sit as Town, Pete sit as light town due to the tone and the way they came into the game, it's hard to explain casually like this without quoting his posts and talking a whole lotta shit which I don't feel like doing unless I absolutely have to because gut-TRs just tend to fade away in favour of actual TRs at some point. Rory is null-ish, his content is really generic, then I SR Master Fisherman obviously from what I've said. Charlene said they'll be active but you know... nothing so far.

Galea R. wrote:Also Howie i'm not really a fan of you ignoring the readslists up till this point and only coming on to put a vote that you effectively justify with two things: 1) being a gut-TR and 2) me agreeing with you.
It basically disconnects any decision-making on your end with the vote, and I really really don't like that.
The last paragraph of your post is pretty much filler too, and you're asking people to talk about things that you haven't even talked about.

Howie M. wrote:lowkey feeling scumvibes off Master Fisherman, the things he chose to focus on, namely some RVS BS, seems like such a trivial thing when viewed in the grand scheme of things.

I'm usually an advocator for Quality > Quantity but at this point of the game, most forms of analysis is bound to be at best absolute trash and at worst scummy filler, we should be pushing for quantity now, since we kinda obviously have a big issue with that and quality doesn't really matter if there's no quantity (kinda like how anything multiplied by 0 is 0, if we have none of either we're fucked).

To clarify, the reason I disliked Master Fisherman's post is because it just seems like the kind of thing you'd post in RVS for that postcount, the content is deceivingly minimal for what seems to be game-related talk, "This is RVS filler, it could be normal RVS filler or it could be RVS filler with a meaning" is how I read his post and I think anyone can see an issue with that.

I'm gonna leave that aside for now though since I'm probably going to start pushing on a lurker because god damn we can't have 5 people in a 13-player game active.

Pete's entrance seems town tone-wise but that's negligible currently because we're all basically town until people start talking.

I want stuff like this. please?

Sorry, those posts were mostly there to fill space until I could actually make fancy posts. I don't really try to engage with readslists unless explicitly asked about specific reads because I think the players on the readslists can fend for their own spots. There's nothing really off about your readslists from my own reads that made me want to question anything specifically. Lemme go and reread them now actually to see if there was anything I missed.

BTW Charlene lurking makes me sad

Oh and if your reads put me at a spot I don't feel like I deserve. I'm pretty happy being a TR rn :^)

Yeah gonna spoiler the quote wall cause I'm pretty sure no one wants to reread the shit they posted.

Quote walls 'n' shit:

Main digressions from my own reads are MM's Scumlean on Pete, and the Rory SR on Galea.

I can see where MM is coming from scumleaning Pete for apparently "not being decisive", but honestly at that point of the game where they were active I'd say it's pretty forgivable to be a little hesistant in reads because, in all honesty my reads right now are incredibly volatile, like if everyone suddenly starts talking and game explodes overnight my reads are probably going to change very quickly. So yeah in short I gave him a pass on the hesitance and a +1 for the scumhunting, which puts him neatly in my "light TR" pile. Main issue I have now is the drop-off in activity.

Rory's SR is just a BS reason like "I think she's scum because she's trying to look town" is pretty much what he said and the only reaction you can really give this is like maybe or or or because I don't really see how you make the link between those 2. Rory please feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted but that's how I interpreted it.

@Galea, what are your thoughts then on the issues I brought up with your townread on Pete? Do you still feel those things mean something for alignment?

The thing I quoted above was referring to you quickly jumping to buddying as an explanation for friendliness, not anything Autumn did.

Re: Rory, I can see how you’d interpret the part you quoted as hedging, although to me it felt more like he was putting out all thoughts he had so far and acknowledging that it was still early in the game/people were inactive.

@Howie the problem I have with Pete isn’t anything about him being “decisive” in the sense I think you’re using the word (I.e. hedging). It’s that he seems hyper focused on one player and hasn’t given many opinions on anyone else. His play so far consists of some questioning on me in RVS and an attempt to extend that questioning to Autumn, but no strong conclusions from it. And then by the end of the day he’s apparently moved on to Isis. His posts are, in Galea’s words, “concise” because they barely contain anything to begin with.

I can’t finish this currently, I will do so upon returning.

Also it’s almost the end of Heaven Phase 1 and we’re still on page four. Is there a chance we could get another extension?

Howie M. wrote:Yeah well I'm a complain-y person I don't think that's a negative trait. I like to think of it as me wanting more

alright, fair enough

Howie M. wrote:
I wouldn't say MM was buddying, I'd just call it pregame/earlygame meming because you know, why not.

At what point would you draw the line on that (meaning at what point would it go from meming to buddying)? Or would you just consider any early-game connection as meming?

Howie M. wrote:
Sorry, those posts were mostly there to fill space until I could actually make fancy posts. I don't really try to engage with readslists unless explicitly asked about specific reads because I think the players on the readslists can fend for their own spots. There's nothing really off about your readslists from my own reads that made me want to question anything specifically. Lemme go and reread them now actually to see if there was anything I missed.

I guess I can't fault you for that. It's still worth looking at said readslists in case you disgaree with the logic in it, imo.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:@Galea, what are your thoughts then on the issues I brought up with your townread on Pete? Do you still feel those things mean something for alignment?

I... actually couldn't find the issues you were talking about.
You mind quoting them for me?

Madam Muchmoney wrote:
The thing I quoted above was referring to you quickly jumping to buddying as an explanation for friendliness, not anything Autumn did.

Again, I see a difference between any form of friendliness and a forced connection.

Madam Muchmoney wrote:
Re: Rory, I can see how you’d interpret the part you quoted as hedging, although to me it felt more like he was putting out all thoughts he had so far and acknowledging that it was still early in the game/people were inactive.

Maybe, but that's the tricky thing about hedging; you can't tell when its due to being unsure, and when its being done to absolve any potential blame or w/e

at the last half of your post, I do actually want to know why pete lynched isis at the end of the last day