Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:21 pm

I have disagreements with myself.

The FoS on Cherry I agree with.

The FoS on Clara not so much. She's kind of null for me right now-she comments on only a couple of things, yes, but there also wasn't very much for her to comment on. Clara disliking a certain form of RVS is probably just playstyle as she never actually says she scumreads Cherry for using it, and as a result I don't think she's contradicting Cherry when she mentions a townlean on her (even though I disagree with that townlean).

I'd replace Halsey with Anima in the slight townread section. Anima was the first person (except us) to bring up the circle, and like I said above by the time Halsey mentioned it it was kind of a known thing and possibly not even a towntell because for some reason I went and talked about how Anima was town for doing it.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Dr. Proctor on Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:28 pm

I second the plan to create a chain n1, then a randomized chain n2. Ik im probably a bit late on the uptake here but i personally dont see any better utilization of our fruits. On another note: What would the benefits be of waiting to force mafia no kills later in the game (not doing the chain n1/n2, and instead doing it later, like n2 and n4 or somethin). Idt it would honestly make much of a difference but curious to hear opinions on it.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Caroline M. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:43 pm

Halsey N. wrote:I thought of a way to actually break this game btw

Clara H. ---> Halsey N. --->Shepherd D. ---> Anima V. ---> Caroline M. ---> Dr. Proctor ---> Emmy A. ---> Infernando G. ---> Jeremiah W. ---> Kimmy S. ---> Cherry P. (and back to Clara H. obv)

Since mafia cannot pass a fruit and kill at the same time, this gives us a town win (let me explain).

So everybody BUT 1 person will pass a fruit (the mafia who kills). So whoever here does not get their own fruit (other than the person who doesn't get their fruit due to the one that was supposed to give them their fruit died) is mafia.

If everybody claims to have gotten a fruit, (excluding the person that didnt get the fruit because the passer died obv). Then we will make another chain that mixes up everybody in another order that makes everybody not have the same fruit passers again.

Like this, we get mafia since the person that does not get their fruit from a person that is alive will thus be mafia.

I find it interesting that you boast about reading the rules, but you didn't read the game. Because if you had read the game, you would have known that this strategy has been discussed before, and it was figured out that it doesn't break the game. Can you explain why you didn't read the game before posting? I'm curious.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Caroline M. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Emmy A. wrote:
Anima V. wrote:I can't really say much in defense of my partner ;;
They haven't said anything in the quicktopic atm either

One thing I realized about this setup is that nobody is forced to send fruit during the game. The best way to use fruit, then, is to force everyone to use it; what do you all think about creating daisy chains for the first 2 nights?
If somebody randomizes all of our names into a ring, and we fruit the person next in the chain. wouldn't we guarantee two free nights with no kill, barring the scumpartners are next to each other on the daisy chain?
I'm going to try to simulate the possible scenarios that arise when we make this daisy chain:
Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.
Scenario B: one of the two scum decided to nk the person next to them in the chain. Everybody would receive fruit, so the killer must be the person that was supposed to fruit the dead target, unless the two scum were adjacent to each other. (I'll get back to this scenario later).  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
A third scenario involves scum killing someone other than the person next in the daisy chain. Since the killing scum wouldn't be able to send fruit, the person in front of the killing scum wouldn't receive fruit. The second non-killing scum could make up for that by sending fruit to the person in front of the killing scum, but that would still leave one person with no fruit; the person behind the person claiming no fruit must be scum, regardless of whether they killed or not. I don't think this is a play scum would make in any circumstance. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I also considered scum lying about receiving fruit, but this is also no play in my opinion; all this does is create a 1v1 between the person who claims to have sent fruit, and the scum who lied about receiving any fruit.
The final scenario is simply when the two scum are adjacent in the daisy chain; this is simply bad luck; everyone would receive fruit, and somebody dies in the process. It would also look exactly like the same scenario as when scum kills the person in front of them in the daisy chain. If somebody is nightkilled and everybody claims to have received fruit, we then lynch the person behind the n1 victim; if they are scum, great! The second scum could be anywhere in the chain. If they aren't scum, we know that the two scum are adjacent to each other in the daisy chain, which is invaluable information in itself.

I have some other things to say about what should happen when day 2 starts, but I'd like that information hidden at this point. If anyone sees any loopholes in this plan that scum could potentially take advantage of, let me know.

Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.

So the gameplan is to fruit the person next to you, right? So let's just do four people in this scenario, A, B, C, and D. A is the mafia, and therefore cannot fruit B, which B fruited C and C fruited D and D fruited A. If B dies, then the obvious mafia would be A since D got a fruit and is clear, while A/D would be scum (since player A can fake not getting a fruit, but this would be an optimal scenario since one of the two would 100% be scum). If C dies, D would be clear since B claims he didn't get fruit. If D dies, then C would be clear. For this scenario, this would work.

Now with two mafia, since that's what the theme is. As my other part said, yeah, the only way would be scum being right next to each other on the playerlist, but this is REALLY UNLIKELY (1/110 chance I think). I propose that if we want to do this setup, we switch directions one of the times so that this unlikely scenario is completely rid of (so we don't accidentally just clear scum which would be horrendous).

Playing the game with just no kill would pretty much be a Semi-Nightless 11p setup. To be honest, I'd rather do this around a rose thing on day 2/3 or 3/4, since playing this semi-nightless doesn't reach the potential of how good town can be in this setup. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there's an universal town read, I would say do this method later, as everyone is only two-shot which makes our chances with this method very limited.

More thoughts coming later.

You suggest switching directions so the mafia don't follow eachother up at least one time, but would that not mean that they simply follow eachother up in the other order? Switching directions doesn't change who is next to eachother. Basically I don't know why you suggest switching the directions as a way of preventing mafia having to "give" fruit to another mafia.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:06 pm

Caroline M. wrote:
Emmy A. wrote:
Anima V. wrote:I can't really say much in defense of my partner ;;
They haven't said anything in the quicktopic atm either

One thing I realized about this setup is that nobody is forced to send fruit during the game. The best way to use fruit, then, is to force everyone to use it; what do you all think about creating daisy chains for the first 2 nights?
If somebody randomizes all of our names into a ring, and we fruit the person next in the chain. wouldn't we guarantee two free nights with no kill, barring the scumpartners are next to each other on the daisy chain?
I'm going to try to simulate the possible scenarios that arise when we make this daisy chain:
Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.
Scenario B: one of the two scum decided to nk the person next to them in the chain. Everybody would receive fruit, so the killer must be the person that was supposed to fruit the dead target, unless the two scum were adjacent to each other. (I'll get back to this scenario later).  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
A third scenario involves scum killing someone other than the person next in the daisy chain. Since the killing scum wouldn't be able to send fruit, the person in front of the killing scum wouldn't receive fruit. The second non-killing scum could make up for that by sending fruit to the person in front of the killing scum, but that would still leave one person with no fruit; the person behind the person claiming no fruit must be scum, regardless of whether they killed or not. I don't think this is a play scum would make in any circumstance. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I also considered scum lying about receiving fruit, but this is also no play in my opinion; all this does is create a 1v1 between the person who claims to have sent fruit, and the scum who lied about receiving any fruit.
The final scenario is simply when the two scum are adjacent in the daisy chain; this is simply bad luck; everyone would receive fruit, and somebody dies in the process. It would also look exactly like the same scenario as when scum kills the person in front of them in the daisy chain. If somebody is nightkilled and everybody claims to have received fruit, we then lynch the person behind the n1 victim; if they are scum, great! The second scum could be anywhere in the chain. If they aren't scum, we know that the two scum are adjacent to each other in the daisy chain, which is invaluable information in itself.

I have some other things to say about what should happen when day 2 starts, but I'd like that information hidden at this point. If anyone sees any loopholes in this plan that scum could potentially take advantage of, let me know.

Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.

So the gameplan is to fruit the person next to you, right? So let's just do four people in this scenario, A, B, C, and D. A is the mafia, and therefore cannot fruit B, which B fruited C and C fruited D and D fruited A. If B dies, then the obvious mafia would be A since D got a fruit and is clear, while A/D would be scum (since player A can fake not getting a fruit, but this would be an optimal scenario since one of the two would 100% be scum). If C dies, D would be clear since B claims he didn't get fruit. If D dies, then C would be clear. For this scenario, this would work.

Now with two mafia, since that's what the theme is. As my other part said, yeah, the only way would be scum being right next to each other on the playerlist, but this is REALLY UNLIKELY (1/110 chance I think). I propose that if we want to do this setup, we switch directions one of the times so that this unlikely scenario is completely rid of (so we don't accidentally just clear scum which would be horrendous).

Playing the game with just no kill would pretty much be a Semi-Nightless 11p setup. To be honest, I'd rather do this around a rose thing on day 2/3 or 3/4, since playing this semi-nightless doesn't reach the potential of how good town can be in this setup. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there's an universal town read, I would say do this method later, as everyone is only two-shot which makes our chances with this method very limited.

More thoughts coming later.

You suggest switching directions so the mafia don't follow eachother up at least one time, but would that not mean that they simply follow eachother up in the other order? Switching directions doesn't change who is next to eachother. Basically I don't know why you suggest switching the directions as a way of preventing mafia having to "give" fruit to another mafia.

Fuck, I'm stupid.
Scratch that, one of the times we do this should be random (or both).
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Caroline M. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:15 pm

Emmy A. wrote:
Anima V. wrote:I can't really say much in defense of my partner ;;
They haven't said anything in the quicktopic atm either

One thing I realized about this setup is that nobody is forced to send fruit during the game. The best way to use fruit, then, is to force everyone to use it; what do you all think about creating daisy chains for the first 2 nights?
If somebody randomizes all of our names into a ring, and we fruit the person next in the chain. wouldn't we guarantee two free nights with no kill, barring the scumpartners are next to each other on the daisy chain?
I'm going to try to simulate the possible scenarios that arise when we make this daisy chain:
Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.
Scenario B: one of the two scum decided to nk the person next to them in the chain. Everybody would receive fruit, so the killer must be the person that was supposed to fruit the dead target, unless the two scum were adjacent to each other. (I'll get back to this scenario later).  Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
A third scenario involves scum killing someone other than the person next in the daisy chain. Since the killing scum wouldn't be able to send fruit, the person in front of the killing scum wouldn't receive fruit. The second non-killing scum could make up for that by sending fruit to the person in front of the killing scum, but that would still leave one person with no fruit; the person behind the person claiming no fruit must be scum, regardless of whether they killed or not. I don't think this is a play scum would make in any circumstance. (Again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I also considered scum lying about receiving fruit, but this is also no play in my opinion; all this does is create a 1v1 between the person who claims to have sent fruit, and the scum who lied about receiving any fruit.
The final scenario is simply when the two scum are adjacent in the daisy chain; this is simply bad luck; everyone would receive fruit, and somebody dies in the process. It would also look exactly like the same scenario as when scum kills the person in front of them in the daisy chain. If somebody is nightkilled and everybody claims to have received fruit, we then lynch the person behind the n1 victim; if they are scum, great! The second scum could be anywhere in the chain. If they aren't scum, we know that the two scum are adjacent to each other in the daisy chain, which is invaluable information in itself.

I have some other things to say about what should happen when day 2 starts, but I'd like that information hidden at this point. If anyone sees any loopholes in this plan that scum could potentially take advantage of, let me know.

Scenario A: scum decide not to kill for 2 nights. Great! We get 2 nights free of charge and have more lynches at our hands, and then play regular vanilla for the rest of the game.

So the gameplan is to fruit the person next to you, right? So let's just do four people in this scenario, A, B, C, and D. A is the mafia, and therefore cannot fruit B, which B fruited C and C fruited D and D fruited A. If B dies, then the obvious mafia would be A since D got a fruit and is clear, while A/D would be scum (since player A can fake not getting a fruit, but this would be an optimal scenario since one of the two would 100% be scum). If C dies, D would be clear since B claims he didn't get fruit. If D dies, then C would be clear. For this scenario, this would work.

Now with two mafia, since that's what the theme is. As my other part said, yeah, the only way would be scum being right next to each other on the playerlist, but this is REALLY UNLIKELY (1/110 chance I think). I propose that if we want to do this setup, we switch directions one of the times so that this unlikely scenario is completely rid of (so we don't accidentally just clear scum which would be horrendous).

Playing the game with just no kill would pretty much be a Semi-Nightless 11p setup. To be honest, I'd rather do this around a rose thing on day 2/3 or 3/4, since playing this semi-nightless doesn't reach the potential of how good town can be in this setup. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there's an universal town read, I would say do this method later, as everyone is only two-shot which makes our chances with this method very limited.

More thoughts coming later.

Oooh ur ability to do math is quite dazzling indeed! However if my calculations are correct i believe the probability is much much lower. There are 11 players and so there are 11 factorial ways in arranging them right? There are also 22 ways in those 11 factorial where the 2 mafia will be next to each other. Therefore the probability is like 0.00000055 approx (correct me if my method is wrong lol)
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Caroline M. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:22 pm

Of course, regardless of the probability, it still doesn't work. Also, randomization is perhaps not the best idea. There are two scum, and it is entirely possible for the list to be created by the scum both times. We have no way to determine whether or not it was randomized. I think we should stick with the simple method for the first night at least, and then for the second night perhaps we could do some sort of skipping rhythm, where we create two chains. One with the first, third, fifth etc. person on the list and the other with the second, fourth etc. Or if there's the right ammount of people we might even just do first, third etc. and loop back around to second, fourth etc. but that's for later.

We should at least determine whether or not we will even use this strategy on night 1, and whether we go up the playerlist or down.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:47 pm

I'm not sure right now, I'll agree with your math but I'm really tired. I'll think about a strategy for fruiting later, when my brain is cleared up.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:14 pm

saw someone asked why I lynched halsey, caroline summarized it pretty well
Caroline M. wrote:
I find it interesting that you boast about reading the rules, but you didn't read the game. Because if you had read the game, you would have known that this strategy has been discussed before, and it was figured out that it doesn't break the game. Can you explain why you didn't read the game before posting? I'm curious.

effectively, halsey joined the game, shitposted three times, and then talked about something which signified that he didn't read the game thread whatsoever. thats a lot worse than anything jeremiah did, especially given that there were game-related things he could've talked about but chose not to
reading the rest now, lmk if you need an elaboration/clarification
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by ajhockeystar on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:18 pm

Emmy A. wrote:By the way, is there a way to ISO on this forum?
If so, please tell me. That would be extremely useful.

If you go to my first post and click on the "Alive" spoiler, clicking on any person's name will give you their ISO.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:28 pm

Caroline M. wrote:
You say that pregame is good for seeing people's thought process or posting style. Now both of these depend very much on the personality of the player which makes these aspects NAI and are only important if you see a sudden change in someone's posting style.
I'm a bit confused on what you mean here. i've explained multiple times what I didn't like about the thought process jeremiah exhibited, regardless of alignment, and playstyle can actually be pretty important when it comes to scumhunting (e.g. someone could be a lurker, or be overeager/lynch happy regardless of being t/s).

Caroline M. wrote:You said yourself that confirming is easy and so surely mafia wont have any trouble doing such an easy task if it means making themself look less scummy?
thats possible/likely.
Caroline M. wrote: Also jeremiah is clearly self-aware that he is making a joke so theres no way of telling if he is being self-aware about his role, but your extrapolation when you said "this may mean he will hold back info" or something like that should have been saved when you have an actual case where you suspect he is holding back info. Now if jeremiah was planning to hold back info, he will make sure that his posts seem like he will not.
I have no idea what this is saying. If you're saying that it being a joke means he isn't being self-aware, then I disagree with you on that.

Caroline M. wrote: This is why early extrapolation of pre-game info is useless imo. You also mention that scumhunting is looking for points where someone messed up that could lead to them being mafia, which is true, but it seems more likely that the joke jeremiah made was intentional rather than a slip.
Don't think it's a slip, I think it's a bad/scummy mindset.

Shepherd D. wrote:I would've been happy if Cherry would've told me her thoughts though.
on the rvs lynch on me? idrk what thoughts i can have on that lol

Emmy A. wrote:By the way, is there a way to ISO on this forum?
If so, please tell me. That would be extremely useful.
at the first post, aj has a list of all the alive/dead players, you can click on their name and it takes you to their ISO.

Emmy A. wrote:

This is the second half of Emma (the person who has the previous posts), and I can't exactly answer all the questions you are sending at my other counterpart. However, I do have a comment; How come your so caught up into this "reasons I lynched Jeremiah" thing? Why do you feel the need to have to explain your RVS lynch? I may be missing something, if you would like to elaborate, that would be great.
i'm caught up in it because i was trying to explain why it wasn't a bandwagon?
i think multiple people are calling it an RVs lynch, which it technically is, but i'd say a better way of thinking about it is a lynch with some reasoning (yes I understand the reasoning isn't the strongest but the game had just started and it was something that stood out to me) that I followed through on in the RVs stage. I remember there was another game where something similar happened (some dude was excessively nervous when other people were joking about him being lynched, so then everyone lynched him as a result).
I have a bit of a problem of assuming everyone else knows what i'm thinking, which is why I didn't really feel the need to explain the jeremiah/halsey lynches until asked (ok there were other factors too but that is one that definitely contributed to this), so i'll try to stop doing that in the future
also whoever called me lynch happy for lynching two people needs to chill out, thats a hyperbole if i've ever seen one.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:41 pm

I thought about a fool-proof way to break this fruiting system.

Of course, it requires the fullest support of town is sort of counter-intuitive, but I think it is the only fool-proof way.

Basically, we have the person who is being lynched making the randomized list --- this way if they flip town, we have a non-manipulated list to use, and if they flip scum, well, we have lynched scum and that is always a plus Very Happy

Going to forward Cherry P. soon.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:51 pm

if they flip scum we shouldn't use their list because they're probably going to have partners send to each other, meaning we're going to waste one of our nights
I suppose that could be used to narrow things down?
Otherwise I think it's a good system.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:57 pm

If they flip scum there's only one scum remaining. There are thus no more partners for the scum to send so and thus scum is forced to join that chain (or be outed and give town the win).
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:59 pm

Cherry P. wrote:
Emmy A. wrote:

This is the second half of Emma (the person who has the previous posts), and I can't exactly answer all the questions you are sending at my other counterpart. However, I do have a comment; How come your so caught up into this "reasons I lynched Jeremiah" thing? Why do you feel the need to have to explain your RVS lynch? I may be missing something, if you would like to elaborate, that would be great.
i'm caught up in it because i was trying to explain why it wasn't a bandwagon?
i think multiple people are calling it an RVs lynch, which it technically is, but i'd say a better way of thinking about it is a lynch with some reasoning (yes I understand the reasoning isn't the strongest but the game had just started and it was something that stood out to me) that I followed through on in the RVs stage. I remember there was another game where something similar happened (some dude was excessively nervous when other people were joking about him being lynched, so then everyone lynched him as a result).
I have a bit of a problem of assuming everyone else knows what i'm thinking, which is why I didn't really feel the need to explain the jeremiah/halsey lynches until asked (ok there were other factors too but that is one that definitely contributed to this), so i'll try to stop doing that in the future
also whoever called me lynch happy for lynching two people needs to chill out, thats a hyperbole if i've ever seen one.

Oh, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. So you feel the need to explain your lynch only when we ask...well that's extremely helpful (sarcasm intended). Your reasoning is from what I see, is:

oh yeah i remember now the reason i planned on lynching you pre-game start, jeremiah, was that whichever one of you jokingly said that they shouldn't be too scummy so that they don't get lynched looked bad to me due to an excessive amount of self-awareness. wrote:

So the reasoning is:
[strike]Cmon man we can't act scummy in the pregame then we'll get ourself lynched day 1.[/strike] wrote:

Nice. Then in a previous post where you backed up your lynch on Jeremiah, you said:

legitimate fos on anima though, i don't like that one of them came on and didn't confirm (strikes me as strange) wrote:

"legitimate fos" yet you don't lynch Anima. Instead, you lynch the person you lynched pregame because you "like following through with stuff."

However, then you lynch Hasley for shitpost---and while I mean I won't argue he did shitpost (still slightly TR him)---you didn't follow through this time. Now your contradicting yourself, and making a huge fuss out of this.

And to be honest, the lynch of Hasley seems like an easy to lynch to deflect attention, since Hasley's actions from the start could be looked upon as scummy. I have a couple questions here for Cherry:
A. How come you didn't follow through on the Anima lynch?
B. What reasons, aside from shitpost (since as you said, it is a playstyle), do you have to lynch Hasley?
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:02 pm

Emmy A. wrote:If they flip scum there's only one scum remaining. There are thus no more partners for the scum to send so and thus scum is forced to join that chain (or be outed and give town the win).

Forwarding this, if there is one more scum remaining then basically yeah, they have the follow the chain or they will be outed.

If we use my method of lynching, and the person who we are lynching is scum, I don't necessarily think that whoever is fruiting them = scum since that just WIFOM and very easy to manipulate. If they flip scum, I say do the same exact fruiting system, and we should be thankful there is one scum down day one.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:07 pm

Emmy A. wrote:If they flip scum there's only one scum remaining. There are thus no more partners for the scum to send so and thus scum is forced to join that chain (or be outed and give town the win).
oh. oops.

Emmy A. wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. So you feel the need to explain your lynch only when we ask...well that's extremely helpful (sarcasm intended).
yeah i'll stop doing that

Emmy A. wrote:
"legitimate fos" yet you don't lynch Anima. Instead, you lynch the person you lynched pregame because you "like following through with stuff."
again, i had an actual reason to lynch jeremiah whereas anima just did something that was strange. strange enough for me to fos her but not to lynch her compared to jeremiah. Does that make sense?

Emmy A. wrote:
However, then you lynch Hasley for shitpost---and while I mean I won't argue he did shitpost (still slightly TR him)---you didn't follow through this time. Now your contradicting yourself, and making a huge fuss out of this.
I don't understand, what am I not following through on now? I saw something that was definitely worse fmpov than what I was lynching jeremiah for, so I switched my lynch?

Emmy A. wrote:
And to be honest, the lynch of Hasley seems like an easy to lynch to deflect attention, since Hasley's actions from the start could be looked upon as scummy.
woah woah WOAH WOAH hold up
his actions could be looked upon as scummy, but i'm not lynching him because i think he's scummy but because i'm trying to deflect attention? Have you considered that the first one is entirely why i'm lynching him?

Emmy A. wrote: I have a couple questions here for Cherry:
A. How come you didn't follow through on the Anima lynch?
B. What reasons, aside from shitpost (since as you said, it is a playstyle), do you have to lynch Hasley?
the reasoning was weaker than the jeremiah lynch (i've said this already)
ive said the second part already as well, but i'll elaborate. Halsey joins the game, with 2/3 pages of discussion wrt the fruit strategy and me, ignores all of it, shitposts three times, brings up a strategy that's already been talked about, and acts like he's the one who did so. The reason I see this as scummy is a) fillering when there's actually something to talk about and b) he demonstrated that he didn't read the thread whatsoever when making his arguments (and had no real reason not do to do), which is not a good thing to do whatsoever
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Personally, I think you're not following through on your FoS in Jeremiah. After you switched to Halsey you kind of just stopped acknowledging him, so that part feels like you backed off the Jeremiah lynch once you received the ire of others for it.

I've got more I want to say regarding Cherry's thoughts on Halsey and this page. Typing those thoughts now.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Halsey N. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:37 pm

Time to talk. Ok so I basically shitposted 4 times and am well aware of that. I already know that emmy suggested the same strategy (well went into detail with it), I know that Jeremiah was the first to come up with the fundamentals to a strategy like that. Basically, what I did was post and wait a 10 hour period. What I have seen up to this point from other players is that their reads are mainly on preferences to for their own scum style strategy (like cherry's lynch on pre-game stuff).
Now to explain the 10 hour period, basically I figured that waiting 10 hours would make the 2 people of each group post and I wanted to see how they reacted since I made myself the center of attention. I know that the two people cannot differentiate between their account, but I wanted to see if there is any self-doubt or hesitation within the accounts (or even adding more in) since I would think being mafia makes your primary goal to get a person lynch and thus not worry much about who is gone. This ofcourse is all eliminated if the mafia isn't that quick to want to lynch and fit in with town as best as they can, but just wanted to experiment.

Seeing this is 9v2, this makes 3 mislynches (with night kill). We would the fruit twice when we have 5 players left if we have not caught a mafia so we can be in control of the lynch (shut down the nk).

Next post is my reads so far.

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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:40 pm

Dr. Proctor wrote:I second the plan to create a chain n1, then a randomized chain n2. Ik im probably a bit late on the uptake here but i personally dont see any better utilization of our fruits. On another note: What would the benefits be of waiting to force mafia no kills later in the game (not doing the chain n1/n2, and instead doing it later, like n2 and n4 or somethin). Idt it would honestly make much of a difference but curious to hear opinions on it.
It has value. I think it will be affected by how confident we are in the odds of a given person flipping scum. I have my thoughts on how scum would play things if we did it later, but if scum doesn't share those thoughts I don't want to start giving them ideas early on-it's something I can use to scumhunt later on if scum sets off that tell.

I, for one, am in favor of using the cycle at least once between Night 1/2. Not necessarily both, but forcing scum to no kill early on is super helpful from a discussion standpoint. We could then save the other for a situation like MyLo, where many players prefer to No Lynch anyway.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Emmy A. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:47 pm

Cherry P. wrote:saw someone asked why I lynched halsey, caroline summarized it pretty well
Caroline M. wrote:
I find it interesting that you boast about reading the rules, but you didn't read the game. Because if you had read the game, you would have known that this strategy has been discussed before, and it was figured out that it doesn't break the game. Can you explain why you didn't read the game before posting? I'm curious.

effectively, halsey joined the game, shitposted three times, and then talked about something which signified that he didn't read the game thread whatsoever. thats a lot worse than anything jeremiah did, especially given that there were game-related things he could've talked about but chose not to
reading the rest now, lmk if you need an elaboration/clarification
Nothing you say here is wrong as far as what you say Halsey did. Where you lose me is where you call him worse than Jeremiah, because according to you Jeremiah set off an actual scumtell of self-consciousness while Halsey may have just not been paying attention. If he "hadn't read the thread" as you propose, how could he deliberately choose to not discuss things in it?

Halsey N. wrote:Time to talk. Ok so I basically shitposted 4 times and am well aware of that. I already know that emmy suggested the same strategy (well went into detail with it), I know that Jeremiah was the first to come up with the fundamentals to a strategy like that. Basically, what I did was post and wait a 10 hour period. What I have seen up to this point from other players is that their reads are mainly on preferences to for their own scum style strategy (like cherry's lynch on pre-game stuff).
Now to explain the 10 hour period, basically I figured that waiting 10 hours would make the 2 people of each group post and I wanted to see how they reacted since I made myself the center of attention. I know that the two people cannot differentiate between their account, but I wanted to see if there is any self-doubt or hesitation within the accounts (or even adding more in) since I would think being mafia makes your primary goal to get a person lynch and thus not worry much about who is gone. This ofcourse is all eliminated if the mafia isn't that quick to want to lynch and fit in with town as best as they can, but just wanted to experiment.

Seeing this is 9v2, this makes  3 mislynches (with night kill).  We would the fruit twice when we have 5 players left if we have not caught a mafia so we can be in control of the lynch (shut down the nk).

Next post is my reads so far.

I'm not understanding the first part of what you say, but I think you're saying it was a reaction test. But I don't think this was the case because you go on to say, "Well, I think mafia would be quick to want a person lynched unless they aren't that quick to lynch," which implies that people's reactions to you wouldn't mean anything as far as alignment went (if any sort of response can be turned into a scumtell, how much of a scumtell is it since everyone will trigger it?).

Um...if we've not caught a Mafia member and we're at 5 players, we're in a 2v3 LyLo. Fruiting there necessitates that we either lynch scum (in which case we can fruit for sure but it's not that important) or No Lynch (which would be a loss). I'm not fully understanding this either.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:47 pm

Emmy A. wrote:Personally, I think you're not following through on your FoS in Jeremiah. After you switched to Halsey you kind of just stopped acknowledging him, so that part feels like you backed off the Jeremiah lynch once you received the ire of others for it.

I've got more I want to say regarding Cherry's thoughts on Halsey and this page. Typing those thoughts now.
I'm a bit confused by what you mean by me not acknowledging him.
Do you not think that what halsey did is scummier than what jeremiah did? Because I do. Being self-aware is not good regardless of your alignment, but it's not necessarily damning for someone to be scum because of it. Halsey's filler/not reading the thread are two things that I think are a lot worse than being self-aware, which is why I switched my lynch.
I'd say I probably "backed off" of the anima fos (although that was pretty weak to begin with) as opposed to jeremiah, since I haven't really said that I don't believe what I said was true wrt him and that I just found someone who would be a better lynch target.


Halsey N. wrote:
stuff
don't really understand what you're trying to say here, seems you're trying to say there was a strategy behind your filler and that you intentionally posted a strategy that had already been discussed and acted like it was your own? Not sure about the everyone weighing in part since that's pretty clearly not happened, unless you mean from the start of the game?
either way i'm pretty confused and would like a clarification as to what your goal was with those 4 posts
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Caroline M. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:51 pm

Cherry P. wrote:
Caroline M. wrote:
You say that pregame is good for seeing people's thought process or posting style. Now both of these depend very much on the personality of the player which makes these aspects NAI and are only important if you see a sudden change in someone's posting style.
I'm a bit confused on what you mean here. i've explained multiple times what I didn't like about the thought process jeremiah exhibited, regardless of alignment, and playstyle can actually be pretty important when it comes to scumhunting (e.g. someone could be a lurker, or be overeager/lynch happy regardless of being t/s).

Caroline M. wrote:You said yourself that confirming is easy and so surely mafia wont have any trouble doing such an easy task if it means making themself look less scummy?
thats possible/likely.
Caroline M. wrote: Also jeremiah is clearly self-aware that he is making a joke so theres no way of telling if he is being self-aware about his role, but your extrapolation when you said "this may mean he will hold back info" or something like that should have been saved when you have an actual case where you suspect he is holding back info. Now if jeremiah was planning to hold back info, he will make sure that his posts seem like he will not.
I have no idea what this is saying. If you're saying that it being a joke means he isn't being self-aware, then I disagree with you on that.

Caroline M. wrote: This is why early extrapolation of pre-game info is useless imo. You also mention that scumhunting is looking for points where someone messed up that could lead to them being mafia, which is true, but it seems more likely that the joke jeremiah made was intentional rather than a slip.
Don't think it's a slip, I think it's a bad/scummy mindset.

1) But you said "regardless of being t/s", which backs my point in saying it is NAI. So I am not quite sure how it is useful for finding scum.

3) no i was saying that he knew he was making a joke and so you cant tell whether he was being self-aware about his scumminess

4) honestly i am still not understanding why a blatant joke is being seen as a scummy mindset. Surely there is no way of telling if they are just joking around?

I only said that the lynch on halsey makes you look lynch happy rather than you are lynch happy because you voted twice.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Emmy A. wrote:
Nothing you say here is wrong as far as what you say Halsey did. Where you lose me is where you call him worse than Jeremiah, because according to you Jeremiah set off an actual scumtell of self-consciousness while Halsey may have just not been paying attention. If he "hadn't read the thread" as you propose, how could he deliberately choose to not discuss things in it?
either you're not reading my posts or i'm not being clear.
For jeremiah, I identified something that's either a) a scumtell or b) a harmful thought process. Either way, calling it out is beneficial because he could be a) scum or b) town with a mindset that needs to change. That being said, being self-aware isnt necessarily something that means you're automatically scum, and i've said multiple times that he could just be town thinking the wrong way.
For halsey, i'm saying that he just chose to skip over the entirety of the thread and not read it, which is not a good thing to do as town, plus he fillered a large amount as soon as he began posting. Effectively he has a more harmful town mindset than town!jeremiah (because just ignoring the rest of the game and regurgitating ideas that have already been said does nothing but stifle current discussion) and did something scummy himself (the needless filler). Regardless of him being aware that content was posted or not, the filler isn't really excusable.
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Re: Game 32: Farmer's Hydra

Post by Cherry P. on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:56 pm

Caroline M. wrote:
1) But you said "regardless of being t/s", which backs my point in saying it is NAI. So I am not quite sure how it is useful for finding scum.

3) no i was saying that he knew he was making a joke and so you cant tell whether he was being self-aware about his scumminess

4) honestly i am still not understanding why a blatant joke is being seen as a scummy mindset. Surely there is no way of telling if they are just joking around?

I only said that the lynch on halsey makes you look lynch happy rather than you are lynch happy because you voted twice.
i've said this so many times already, are you guys reading my posts or am I not conveying my ideas properly? The mindset conveyed by the joke was one that was harmful, which is why I brought it up and lynched him in the first place. I explained that while it could come from both town or scum, it's bad if it comes from either and then I explained why.
Already talked about the joke being irrelevant to the mindset, multiple times as well I think
why does me moving my lynch from someone who I see as scummier than my original lynch target make me lynch happy? I don't understand where that comes from and it seems like you're just trying to use buzzwords to make me seem scummier, when they aren't actually relevant.
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