Game 30: Separated Scum

Teaque Q. wrote:
Firstly, I'm not going to respond to something that's basically a conspiracy theory. I'm going to respond here because you're starting a tunnel on me and I don't enjoy that. Your "unnatural placement" isn't unnatural, I fully expect scum reads / town reads on me. I know exactly what I've done and it did warrant at least one or two scumreads at the time. But, If you wanted to pressure me, you should've lynched me. You did not, and therefore what you came up with was a force with no backing. Now onto THIS argument. You are scumreading me for not falling into a trap...? Just because I didn't interact with you in no way makes me mafia. I stated my thoughts for the day, and waited for you and others to state a proper argument against me, because again, No evidence = No pressure. I lurked during Day 3 because I had nothing constructive or useful to say that already had not been said.

Now, I'll be back with another post in 2-3 hours, it'll clarify my thoughts on Day 3 and the current day 4 a bit more.

Maybe it was my bad in calling it a trap. It was a test to see if you would react in a townie way, which you didn't. Also bullshit on "if you wanted to pressure me, you should've lynched me" - are you not going to bother to respond to anyone unless you feel pressured to? or you feel the need to defend yourself? The fact that you say this implies that you didn't feel pressured over my readlist, and didn't bother to respond - were you afraid of posting your opinions and counterarguments for fear of it being picked apart?
If you didn't have anything constructive or useful to say about day 3, why aren't you still looking? You have failed time and time again to demonstrate active scumhunting, and you coasted day 3 because you could afford to. You also haven't explained to us why you're town and shouldn't be lynched today; all you've said is that you think Marilyn is scum, bringing up other people's points on her.
Speaking of which, you're hypothesizing that you might be miller that Marilyn inspected? What? When you basically ignored my entire argument by calling it a conspiracy theory? Can't the exact same thing be said of you, since your read on Marilyn has shifted dramatically since you've returned from your lurking? Aren't you the last scum who thought Marilyn was your partner? I'll also mention again that you lynched Titus with weak af reasoning and kept that lynch on for the entirety of the day, and yet still haven't reacted to the case presented by Marilyn against Titus? Since you've admitted to lurking, and you've said that you did so because everything you wanted to say had been said already, aren't you implying that you agreed with Marilyn's case against them, and that Titus's defense was weak? And now you're suddenly just completely off Titus for no reason, even when that scummy af plurshift happened at the end of the day, and you're bandwagoning Marilyn? You're flipping toward lynching Marilyn because pressure is off Titus at the moment.
I'll also point out that nobody besides me actually had a strong read on you until today, simply because you haven't put out any content for us to read you on, and lynching you for that is perfectly justifiable at this stage in the game, where we have multiple mislynches in our hands. Why, though, are you specifically targeting Marilyn for this, when I posted basically the same thing and called you a liability to town? I say it's because you find Marilyn to be an easier push, given that multiple people read her as scum at the moment, and you're seeking an easy mislynch for today that you can brush off saying "well everyone found her scummy, so..."

Teaque is scum. I want to lynch them, but I'm not leaving Titus as the sole person to not have a lynch placed on anyone.

I would honestly rather have Titus lynched, but I felt you could be scum too, and O.O and Titus would never lynch Titus, meaning that of my two scumreads, you would be the only one able to be lynched

We are in a 1v4 situation, but it is a basically nightless 1v4 situation, meaning we have 2 mislynches. It's not exactly a desperate situation, and, looking at the players, either the scum is very good, or we have a pretty much guaranteed win.

As far as why I scumread you, Nicolette covered most of it. Aside from that, I have stated why I townread O.O and Nicolette.

Then we come to the brackets. You have been theorising that I am a scum who thought you were a scumpartner since day 2?
What on earth caused you to think that at that point? Sure I townread you at the time, but that doesn't mean I think you are a scum partner...
If you think the only major thing that happened yesterday was scum getting lynched, you are wrong. Yesterday O.O made a case against me, I made a case against Titus, and Nicolette made cases against Yuzo, You, and Titus
Obviously you don't care because the most pressure was on Titus and Yuzo, not yourself. You only care that your scumpartner got lynched, which is also why you didn't bother helping on day 3
Now there is pressure on you, ooh activity and posting
If you would rather lynch Titus, I would be happy to comply, but as of right now, my lynch stands

Titus, we appear to be in the opposite situation. I suggest you think carefully before placing your vote. Look at our posts, and look at other people's opinions. I think. I know who Nicolette will lynch, so the decision rests upon you. I would obviously prefer you to lynch Teaque, but it's not my choice

O.O, I know you have good reasoning to lynch me, but I suggest you consider others reasoning on other people, because I believe that both Titus and Teaque are better lynch choices for today

Nicolette D. wrote: c) I already scumread titus to the point where a scummy plurshift doesn't change my read on them, but just affirms my scumread on them in the first place.

why was the plurshift scummy, all it looked like to me was titus saving himself?

Nicolette D. wrote:
explanation re: not lynching linda + lylo me and marilyn

alright, all of that makes sense. sorry for the misunderstanding on the second part.

Nicolette D. wrote:
As for Marilyn's offensive against you, I don't think it's nearly as solid as her case against Titus; I'm crediting her for demonstrating active scumhunting; something which few of us have actually done in this game. I also think Marilyn's defense against your accusations on her have been solid, far more so than Titus's defense on others.

hm. from what I see she's said the majority of my case is true and then refuted 1 or two points. isn't the latter half of that what yuzo did (while ignoring the majority of your case instead of flat out saying it's true)?
I think titus' defense was good, but he reacted to pressure very very poorly. Is that what you meant by titus not defending himself well, or do you believe that his defense wasn't good either?

Nicolette D. wrote:
You guys also need to drop the hypocrisy thing about reading people based on post quality, and I say this because I want to qualify that statement: we shouldn't be reading people based on post quality at this stage in the game. I think it's totally fine to read someone as town for good quality posts in the early-game, because those are coming from the players' own volition and can be taken as an attempt to get a conversation started.

would you define earlygame as anything after early day 2? I think that after that point there should be enough to get semi-ok reads on people that aren't based on content, unless ofc someone is extremely inactive a la yuzo.

Marilyn M. wrote:
O.O, I understand what you are saying now, but I just disagree with what you are saying. I tried explaining it myself but failed, and so I've got rid of it and am typing this instead.

which part of what i'm saying do you disagree with? what I immediately think of is the posting amount (not activity) -> scumminess but i'm not 100% certain on that.

Marilyn M. wrote:'Well, I was really happy. You have no idea how happy I was when you came online and lynched Yuzo the mafia.'

Again. Seems forced the way you said 'the mafia'. Also you are referring to the WRONG post. This makes me think it IS forced

for what it's worth he's referring to two separate occasions in the same sentence, that confused me for a small amount of time as well.

Titus V. wrote:
Please elaborate I don't understand I am referring to the wrong post. Also, I also think that analyzing posts as "forced" is a good way of scumhunting since it relies on the player's playstyle. As OO pointed out, your first post Day 3 could be seen as forced and unhelpful. However, if you are truly town and made that post with pure intent, then you should realized that "forced" is a matter of perspective.

I wouldn't say it was forced. I'd say it was useless/unhelpful and filler.

Teaque Q. wrote: (God it felt good to get this out I've been theorizing this for the past 2 days and needed her to interact with me to send this out)

Mademoiselle, I'm sorry; but it is over.

unlynch Marilyn
this part of the post is so bad lol
why do you need her to interact with you to scumread her? I don't understand that whatsoever.
and the last sentence gives me serious linda vibes from when she was like "good old wall post getting the job done" or whatever. ending your case like that without any discussion is super super scummy in my eyes. unless like its dl or something and you can't elaborate bc lack of time ig? regardless, i don't like it.

Marilyn M. wrote:
We are in a 1v4 situation, but it is a basically nightless 1v4 situation, meaning we have 2 mislynches. It's not exactly a desperate situation, and, looking at the players, either the scum is very good, or we have a pretty much guaranteed win.

why are you doing this its not helpful and it just makes you look bad
i dont understand

Marilyn M. wrote:
If you think the only major thing that happened yesterday was scum getting lynched, you are wrong. Yesterday O.O made a case against me, I made a case against Titus, and Nicolette made cases against Yuzo, You, and Titus
Obviously you don't care because the most pressure was on Titus and Yuzo, not yourself. You only care that your scumpartner got lynched, which is also why you didn't bother helping on day 3
Now there is pressure on you, ooh activity and posting
If you would rather lynch Titus, I would be happy to comply, but as of right now, my lynch stands

are you attempting to be scummy on purpose i don't understand
you say that teaque's scumpartner got lynched, implying that you see him as scum, but then say that you would be ok lynching titus?? the way this post is phrased makes it seem like you think teaque is scummier than titus, plus why would you ever be ok with lynching someone else after you say a certain person is scum?????

anyways, I am INCREDIBLY tired and as such won't be getting to the reading back to yesterday today. sorry if anything i said in this post wasn't coherent, i can re-explain what i was thinking (hopefully) tomorrow. i'll check back tomorrow too, hopefully i'll be well rested.

'why are you doing this its not helpful and it just makes you look bad
i dont understand'

In his post TQ stated that lynching someone because of my reasons in 1v4 is bad because it's near endgame, I'm telling him it's not really endgame as we have 2 mislynches before mylo (1v2)

The thing I disagreed with was your whole concept of the scumminess thing. You seem to have this thing where you are saying you have 10 scumminess with 50 posts, and someone else has 10 scumminess with 20 posts, your average scumminess is 2 and their average scumminess is 5 making them scummier (I know neither of us see it in, or measure, scumminess points I'm just doing that to make it easy to explain) but I don't think that's a good way of scumhunting. Either way, based on today I no longer see you as as scummy as Titus or TQ.

I am certain scrum is between Titus and TQ, but I'm not sure which 1. If I was king I would prefer Titus to be lynched, but, based on others opinions, Teaque is the only one that would really get lynched, and I am fine with Teaque being lynched because we have 2 mislynches, but I would rather have Titus lynched

Votecount 4.2
******************************
Marilyn M.(1)- Teaque Q.
Teaque Q.(1)- Marilyn M.
Titus V.(0)-
O O.(0)-
Nicolette D.(0)-
Not Voting(3)- Nicolette D., Titus V., O O.
******************************
There are 5 alive so it takes 3 to hammer. Plurality applies.
Deadline is Sunday the 16th at 9pm EST.

If the deadline was now, Marilyn M. would be lynched.

aj, i'm at least 99% certain I unlynched
sorry about not doing what i said i would, went to lunch with an old friend and we ended up doing random things until very late (now).
i promise you all that i will get what i said done tomorrow.
thanks to marilyn for clearing that up, would like two discuss the latter two points tomorrow

my bad, fixed!

Well O I won't be here to discuss the points if I die so I would recommend lynching Teaque, who has done his disappearing trick now that the lynched are on me. Like I just don't believe that the one time he is active is when he is being scumread, and as soon as he has no pressure he logs out and probably lurks on a guest account
Like if you really wanted to lynch scum, you would provide your thoughts whenever possible, which I really doubt is once per ingame day

the scummy part about titus's plurshift was titus's own admission that it seemed scummy, and titus's panicked writing style seemed a bit forced. to me, a simple 'i want to save myself so don't fault me for plurshifting' would've sufficed. that being said, i do feel a bit hypocritical in retrospect since i defended marilyn's plurshift off herself on d1 as well.
i also think that there's a big difference between conceding a few points of an opponent's argument and flat-out ignoring them. like a huge difference.
i mentioned the earlygame portion because you guys pulled up marilyn's readlist from like days ago (day 1/early day 2) and tried to expose her for being a hypocrite, when so much has happened between then and now, and she's expressed her updated reads on everyone several times since then. i would roughly define early game as up to early day 2 or so, though, since that was when a lot of us started to make real cases against each other, and sparked real discussion.
lynch teaque q. i would like to point out that they were online yesterday after i made my latest post with further accusations against them, and have failed yet again to respond.

Marilyn M. wrote:
The thing I disagreed with was your whole concept of the scumminess thing. You seem to have this thing where you are saying you have 10 scumminess with 50 posts, and someone else has 10 scumminess with 20 posts, your average scumminess is 2 and their average scumminess is 5 making them scummier (I know neither of us see it in, or measure, scumminess points I'm just doing that to make it easy to explain) but I don't think that's a good way of scumhunting. Either way, based on today I no longer see you as as scummy as Titus or TQ.

i guess going to more precision didn't really help what i was trying to say, but the gist of it was that if you have equal cases for a person with less posts and a person with more posts you should go after the guy with less because that means his posts are overall scummier
its not really too relevant right now but we can get back to it should it become something important

Marilyn M. wrote:
I am certain scrum is between Titus and TQ, but I'm not sure which 1. If I was king I would prefer Titus to be lynched, but, based on others opinions, Teaque is the only one that would really get lynched, and I am fine with Teaque being lynched because we have 2 mislynches, but I would rather have Titus lynched

i understand you sr them both, but the phrasing of the paragraph was such that you called teaque mafia (meaning that titus would not be mafia, or is less likely to be mafia, w/e) and then said you would be ok lynching titus. That seems off to me which is why i pointed it out.

Nicolette D. wrote:the scummy part about titus's plurshift was titus's own admission that it seemed scummy, and titus's panicked writing style seemed a bit forced. to me, a simple 'i want to save myself so don't fault me for plurshifting' would've sufficed. that being said, i do feel a bit hypocritical in retrospect since i defended marilyn's plurshift off herself on d1 as well.

alright i guess
it seemed fine to me in the moment and when i read back it didnt seem bad either so i dont know if i agree

Nicolette D. wrote:
i also think that there's a big difference between conceding a few points of an opponent's argument and flat-out ignoring them. like a huge difference.

fair enough, but they're both still very bad. she also conceded the majority of my points, not just a few.

Nicolette D. wrote:
i mentioned the earlygame portion because you guys pulled up marilyn's readlist from like days ago (day 1/early day 2) and tried to expose her for being a hypocrite, when so much has happened between then and now, and she's expressed her updated reads on everyone several times since then. i would roughly define early game as up to early day 2 or so, though, since that was when a lot of us started to make real cases against each other, and sparked real discussion.  

alright thats fine
not really sure when the readslist's origination date was and ir eally dont want to check back so i'll trust what you said there. in that case there's no real point to pressuring her on that then.


time to look back

You know, the thing is that if I really wanted Marilyn gone I could have easily done that. I could have left my lynch on her when I saw Teaque came online but I didn't. I wasn't sure if she was truly the scum. But then I went back to Teaque, and thought to myself, why would a mafia intentionally act like this? Take Yuzo for example, he was mafia yet he did defend himself while making large posts. It just doesn't make sense. From my personal point of view, keeping Marilyn alive and lynching Teaque is suicidal. If Teaque turns out to be town, I am definitely dead by tomorrow. Since I know I am town, a Teaque lynch easily meant a Nicolette, OO, Marilyn Lylo. I don't know what to think about that. Then what if Marilyn was lynched, if she isn't mafia then Teaque will probably be lynched tomorrow. That means a Nicolette, OO, Titus lylo. Yeah, that's just horrible because I can foresee the outcome. The sad part here is that there is more hope for a town victory when I'm dead before Lylo. I really don't know what to think. This post is mainly ranting, I have to go soon I'm sorry if this post doesn't make much sense. But I'm trying to look at the game in a bigger picture.

A question to Nicolette:
Assume it was LYLO, who would you lynch between Marilyn and OO? What would be the deciding factor?

From what I just wrote, it is best for me to lynch Teaque. Yet, I have a better idea that would help me get a clearer picture of the game. The one person I have mixed thoughts about is OO, I had him as most scummiest but from yesterday's actions moved him above Marilyn as town. What would really help me read him?

Lynch Marilyn

How about letting OO decide who should be lynched for today?

im lynching marilyn unless someone changes my mind
im not lynching until deadline though so please talk about why i should be lynching teaque over marilyn
i can understand some of the arguments against teaque but the bait argument nicolette brought up makes zero sense to me, unless the point she's making is that he's been coasting... which has been something he's already been called out for?
i suppose i'll re-read the arguments for teaque once more, since i have a pretty good idea of the arguments against marilyn atm

alright so im checking back for titus' read on marilyn as miller and i remember that there was something else i was supposed to look at but I dont remember what it is.
if anyone else knows what i said i'd look for please let me know so i can do that

wtf titus no
if anything, let oo lynch forst so you can hammer teaque im not letting marilyn die over bullshit like this

titus you're basically saying you're willing to spend a mislynch and sack someone you think is less likely to be scum. oml

also o.o. read back to my followup argument against teaque. it shoukd be the first post on this page, and i think i present a more convincing argument there. please comment and judge accordingly

alright i looked back for the miller thing and i still can't really see it from titus' pov. worth nothing is that he just drops the "i think she might be miller" and then doesn't explain it until pressured, which seems weird. Perhaps titus is just thinking on a different level than I normally would though, because I can understand the logic, i just don't think it's something that i would do.
now onto titus lynching marilyn. i think that the way he explained himself is interesting, but there's a potential crackpot theory i've got here: should I be completely off, and titus is scum while marilyn is town, he could potentially pin the marilyn mislynch on me since I cast the hammer vote.
he also mentions that its best for town if he's dead before lylo and then doesn't follow the path that (in his own words) actually would cause him to be dead before lylo, which makes literally no sense to me.

unrelated, but we never got the posts on the cop inspects, teaque, me, etc from titus. would like to see those asap.

Nicolette D. wrote:also o.o. read back to my followup argument against teaque. it shoukd be the first post on this page, and i think i present a more convincing argument there. please comment and judge accordingly

alright i'll check that out now

alright shit nicolette's argument actually does make a lot of sense

i dont know whether ive gone into the full "this person must be scum" mindset or not on marilyn because I really do feel like she's the last scum. maybe i just want that to be the case so i can brag about nailing all three scum on day 2, or maybe i actually am correct with what i've identified as scummy behavior
with that being said I think that what nicolette says makes a lot of sense
teaque's contributions today have been less than good, and i especially don't like his last post, especially the way he referred to it "being over" for marilyn.

i do have a question for nicolette - i feel like you've mostly been commenting that marilyn's defense against me was good, but I don't remember you ever commenting about whether you believed in my points against her or not. what do you think of my argument? do you think it is good, bad, or why? what do you think about her conceding to a majority of her argument? you seemed to at least not classify it on the level of what yuzo did (which is understandable), but would you define it as scummy? if not, why do you not think that's the case?

try to keep things concise, we don't have a lot of time.
i'm going to mull over both my argument and yours for marilyn and teaque and then try to make a decision.

tbh o.o. i want to reread your argument once more before giving you an answer on that, but obv no time there. i do feel like you're tunneling marilyn though, much like i'm doing to some extent with titus; this is another reason why i want you to put off lynching marilyn for at least one more day, because i think the debate should be between marilyn and titus, not marilyn and teaque. i want to dedicate a full day in rereading our interactions with each other on that front and argue it out there. also teaque is objectively way scummier imo

Alright that's enough info

Just needed his initial thoughts on the lynch anyways

unlynch marilyn

also i hate that titus lynched marilyn solely to put the lynch in your hands. thats scummy af and i can't point this out enough

>>>>>>>>

Oh I so look forward to tomorrow.

Nicolette D. wrote:tbh o.o. i want to reread your argument once more before giving you an answer on that, but obv no time there. i do feel like you're tunneling marilyn though, much like i'm doing to some extent with titus; this is another reason why i want you to put off lynching marilyn for at least one more day, because i think the debate should be between marilyn and titus, not marilyn and teaque. i want to dedicate a full day in rereading our interactions with each other on that front and argue it out there. also teaque is objectively way scummier imo

alright fine, that's fair enough
if teaque does flip town I really don't think it's titus and that it is in fact marilyn though

i also have no idea what the hell titus is doing